{"id":1883,"date":"2025-12-24T11:37:25","date_gmt":"2025-12-24T11:37:25","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/?page_id=1883"},"modified":"2026-02-06T09:11:22","modified_gmt":"2026-02-06T09:11:22","slug":"kamran-khan","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/kamran-khan\/","title":{"rendered":"Kamran Khan on Building Restaurant Brand Trust: Predictability, Standards, and Speed"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>[et_pb_section fb_built=&#8221;1&#8243; fullwidth=&#8221;on&#8221; admin_label=&#8221;Hero Section&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; background_image=&#8221;https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/law-firm-27.jpg&#8221; parallax=&#8221;on&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;-100px||-32px||false|false&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_fullwidth_header title=&#8221;episode #58&#8243; subhead=&#8221;Kamran Khan\u2019s Brand-Building Mindset: Strong Foundations Before Big Expansion&#8221; button_one_text=&#8221; Listen to this episode now&#8221; button_one_url=&#8221;#audio&#8221; content_max_width=&#8221;900px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; title_font=&#8221;Poppins|600||on|||||&#8221; title_font_size=&#8221;18px&#8221; title_letter_spacing=&#8221;4px&#8221; title_line_height=&#8221;1.8em&#8221; content_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; content_font_size=&#8221;18px&#8221; subhead_font=&#8221;recoleta-bold|700|||||||&#8221; subhead_font_size=&#8221;50px&#8221; subhead_line_height=&#8221;1.4em&#8221; background_color=&#8221;#8300E9&#8243; background_color_gradient_start=&#8221;#090b9b&#8221; background_color_gradient_end=&#8221;rgba(166,0,237,0.72)&#8221; background_color_gradient_direction=&#8221;107deg&#8221; background_image=&#8221;https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Kamran-Khan-banner.jpg&#8221; custom_button_one=&#8221;on&#8221; button_one_text_size=&#8221;14px&#8221; button_one_text_color=&#8221;#8300E9&#8243; button_one_bg_color=&#8221;#FFFFFF&#8221; button_one_border_width=&#8221;12px&#8221; button_one_border_color=&#8221;#ffffff&#8221; button_one_border_radius=&#8221;9px&#8221; button_one_letter_spacing=&#8221;2px&#8221; button_one_font=&#8221;Poppins|600||on|||||&#8221; button_one_icon=&#8221;&#x49;||divi||400&#8243; button_one_icon_color=&#8221;#8300E9&#8243; button_one_icon_placement=&#8221;left&#8221; button_one_on_hover=&#8221;off&#8221; button_one_custom_margin=&#8221;|||0px|false|false&#8221; custom_button_two=&#8221;on&#8221; button_two_text_size=&#8221;14px&#8221; button_two_text_color=&#8221;#29cb8b&#8221; button_two_bg_color=&#8221;#ffffff&#8221; button_two_border_width=&#8221;12px&#8221; button_two_border_color=&#8221;#ffffff&#8221; button_two_letter_spacing=&#8221;2px&#8221; button_two_font=&#8221;Poppins|600||on|||||&#8221; button_two_icon=&#8221;&#x24;||divi||400&#8243; custom_margin=&#8221;||38px|||&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;230px||8vw||false|false&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;230px||18vw||false|false&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;50px||17vw||false|false&#8221; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; content_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;off|desktop&#8221; subhead_font_size_tablet=&#8221;40px&#8221; subhead_font_size_phone=&#8221;30px&#8221; subhead_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|desktop&#8221; background_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; background_image_tablet=&#8221;https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Kamran-Khan-banner.jpg&#8221; background_image_phone=&#8221;https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/Kamran-Khan-banner-mobile.jpg&#8221; background_enable_image_tablet=&#8221;on&#8221; background_enable_image_phone=&#8221;on&#8221; button_one_letter_spacing_hover=&#8221;2px&#8221; button_two_letter_spacing_hover=&#8221;2px&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; button_one_text_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_two_text_size__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_one_text_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_two_text_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_one_border_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_two_border_width__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_one_border_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_two_border_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_one_border_radius__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_two_border_radius__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_one_letter_spacing__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; button_one_letter_spacing__hover=&#8221;2px&#8221; button_two_letter_spacing__hover_enabled=&#8221;on&#8221; button_two_letter_spacing__hover=&#8221;2px&#8221; button_one_bg_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221; button_two_bg_color__hover_enabled=&#8221;off&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In this episode, Kamran Khan joins Ashish Tulsian to share the operator journey behind building restaurant brands that scale. From campaign planning to stocking errors, he explains why restaurants are a daily execution game, why store #2 and #3 reveal truth, and how SOPs plus local market insight create predictable guest experiences. A sharp look at thin margins, cash cycles, and leadership rooted in floor-level empathy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\"><a href=\"https:\/\/youtu.be\/hdD2KGbJGhs?si=ioNRxc9cndqVppS0\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/Youtube.png\" width=\"50\" height=\"50\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-355 alignnone size-thumbnail\" \/><\/a> \u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/open.spotify.com\/episode\/3ydmZYnOH3ZjkiyELsD3pS?si=S2_FXHp6R6eJZhDp6kIu5g\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/Spotify-1.png\" width=\"50\" height=\"50\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-356 alignnone size-thumbnail\" \/><\/a> \u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/podcasts.apple.com\/us\/podcast\/kamran-khans-brand-building-mindset-strong-foundations\/id1649388502?i=1000742570614\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/apple-podcast.png\" width=\"50\" height=\"50\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-358 alignnone size-thumbnail\" \/><\/a> \u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/music.amazon.com\/podcasts\/0a73fe9e-112f-4ad3-ac57-44ae7a8d46e5\/episodes\/3775e73c-3562-4989-bea4-30449ae71fd5\/restrocast-kamran-khan%E2%80%99s-brand-building-mindset-strong-foundations-before-big-expansion\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noopener\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/11\/Amazon-1.png\" width=\"50\" height=\"50\" alt=\"\" class=\"wp-image-359 alignnone size-thumbnail\" \/><\/a> <\/span><\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_fullwidth_header][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section fb_built=&#8221;1&#8243; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;on|desktop&#8221; admin_label=&#8221;Contact Form Section&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; background_color=&#8221;#f1f5f9&#8243; max_width=&#8221;96%&#8221; module_alignment=&#8221;center&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;||100px|&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;||100px|&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;||100px|&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;80px||0vw||false|false&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;80px||0vw||false|false&#8221; custom_padding_phone=&#8221;0px||||false|false&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_row column_structure=&#8221;1_2,1_2&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; width=&#8221;100%&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;1_2&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;|||15px|false|false&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<\/p>\n<h3><span style=\"color: #333333;\">ABOUT THE HOST<\/span><\/h3>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#29cb8b&#8221; divider_weight=&#8221;3px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;3.2&#8243; max_width=&#8221;50px&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_divider][et_pb_image src=&#8221;https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2022\/10\/THE-HOST-ASHISH-TULSIAN.png&#8221; title_text=&#8221;THE-HOST-ASHISH-TULSIAN&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_image][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; text_font_size=&#8221;18px&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;|||15px|false|false&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Ashish is a serial entrepreneur and serves as the CEO &amp; <\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Co- Founder of Restroworks.<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0<\/span><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He is one of the entrepreneurs who has mastered the art of bootstrapping startups to scale. Ashish is a prolific angel investor and mentors budding entrepreneurs and startups in Silicon Valley and India.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][et_pb_column type=&#8221;1_2&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;|||15px|false|false&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<\/p>\n<h3><span style=\"color: #333333;\">ABOUT THE GUEST<\/span><\/h3>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][et_pb_divider color=&#8221;#29cb8b&#8221; divider_weight=&#8221;3px&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;3.2&#8243; max_width=&#8221;50px&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_divider][et_pb_image src=&#8221;https:\/\/restroworks.com\/restrocast\/wp-content\/uploads\/2025\/12\/About-kamran-Khan.png&#8221; alt=&#8221;David Bloom&#8221; title_text=&#8221;About kamran Khan&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;-20px||||false|false&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px||0px||false|false&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][\/et_pb_image][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; text_font_size=&#8221;18px&#8221; min_height=&#8221;105.6px&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;|15px||15px|false|true&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px|||||&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Dr. Kamran Khan is the CEO of Arabian Entertainment Co. Ltd. (Tarfeeh) in Saudi Arabia, where he leads overall operations, portfolio expansion, and partnership strategy across the company\u2019s restaurant brands. With 20+ years in hospitality\/ F&amp;B, he\u2019s known for building and turning around multi-brand restaurant portfolios, having led international concepts such as Applebee\u2019s, IHOP, Ocean Basket, and Macaroni Grill. He holds an MBA from CQUniversity, has completed executive education at Harvard University, and holds a professional doctorate from European International University.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; width=&#8221;100%&#8221; max_width=&#8221;100%&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;5%|||&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;5%|||&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;18%||||false|false&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px|0px||0px|false|false&#8221; use_custom_width=&#8221;on&#8221; width_unit=&#8221;off&#8221; custom_width_percent=&#8221;100%&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;3.25&#8243; custom_padding=&#8221;|||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221; custom_padding__hover=&#8221;|||&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; text_font=&#8221;Raleway|800|||||||&#8221; text_font_size=&#8221;21vw&#8221; text_line_height=&#8221;0.8em&#8221; header_font=&#8221;||||||||&#8221; text_orientation=&#8221;right&#8221; background_layout=&#8221;dark&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;-64px||-5.5vw|||&#8221; custom_margin_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; custom_margin_phone=&#8221;||-8vw|&#8221; custom_margin_last_edited=&#8221;on|desktop&#8221; animation_style=&#8221;slide&#8221; animation_direction=&#8221;bottom&#8221; animation_intensity_slide=&#8221;10%&#8221; animation_starting_opacity=&#8221;100%&#8221; text_font_size_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; text_font_size_phone=&#8221;&#8221; text_font_size_last_edited=&#8221;on|tablet&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p>Speakers<\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section fb_built=&#8221;1&#8243; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;off|desktop&#8221; admin_label=&#8221;Information Section&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; background_color=&#8221;#FFFFFF&#8221; max_width=&#8221;100%&#8221; module_alignment=&#8221;right&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px|0px|3px|0px|false|false&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;||120px|&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; width_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; width_phone=&#8221;96%&#8221; width_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px|||||&#8221; link_option_url=&#8221;<\/p>\n<div id=%22buzzsprout-player-12521774%22><\/div>\n<p><script src=%22https:\/\/www.buzzsprout.com\/2042325\/12521774-rise-to-the-top-the-story-of-wow-bao-s-geoff-alexander.js?container_id=buzzsprout-player-12521774&#038;player=small%22 type=%22text\/javascript%22 charset=%22utf-8%22><\/script>&#8221; sticky_position=&#8221;top&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; link_option_url=&#8221;<\/p>\n<div id=%22buzzsprout-player-12521774%22><\/div>\n<p><script src=%22https:\/\/www.buzzsprout.com\/2042325\/12521774-rise-to-the-top-the-story-of-wow-bao-s-geoff-alexander.js?container_id=buzzsprout-player-12521774&#038;player=small%22 type=%22text\/javascript%22 charset=%22utf-8%22><\/script>&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_text _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; sticky_position=&#8221;top&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<\/p>\n<h1 id=\"audio\">Episode #58<\/h1>\n<p>\n<script src=\"https:\/\/www.buzzsprout.com\/2042325\/episodes\/18405251-kamran-khan-s-brand-building-mindset-strong-foundations-before-big-expansion.js?container_id=buzzsprout-player-18405251&amp;player=small\" type=\"text\/javascript\" charset=\"utf-8\"><\/script>\n<\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_text][\/et_pb_column][\/et_pb_row][\/et_pb_section][et_pb_section fb_built=&#8221;1&#8243; custom_padding_last_edited=&#8221;off|desktop&#8221; admin_label=&#8221;Information Section&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; max_width=&#8221;100%&#8221; module_alignment=&#8221;right&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;14px|0px|54px|0px|false|false&#8221; custom_padding_tablet=&#8221;||120px|&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_row _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; width_tablet=&#8221;&#8221; width_phone=&#8221;96%&#8221; width_last_edited=&#8221;on|phone&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px|||||&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_column type=&#8221;4_4&#8243; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_tabs active_tab_background_color=&#8221;#8300E9&#8243; inactive_tab_background_color=&#8221;#B3B3B3&#8243; active_tab_text_color=&#8221;#FFFFFF&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; tab_text_color=&#8221;#FFFFFF&#8221; tab_font=&#8221;Poppins||||||||&#8221; custom_margin=&#8221;0px||0px||true|false&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;0px||0px||true|false&#8221; border_width_all=&#8221;0px&#8221; border_color_all=&#8221;#D6D6D6&#8243; border_style_all=&#8221;none&#8221; locked=&#8221;off&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;][et_pb_tab title=&#8221;Description &#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; body_text_color=&#8221;#6B6B6B&#8221; body_font_size=&#8221;18px&#8221; body_line_height=&#8221;1.8em&#8221; tab_font_size=&#8221;18px&#8221; tab_letter_spacing=&#8221;1px&#8221; tab_line_height=&#8221;2.3em&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;40px||40px||true|false&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In this episode, Kamran Khan joins Ashish Tulsian for a candid conversation on what it really takes to build and scale a restaurant brand. Kamran breaks down the operator reality: restaurants are a daily problem-solving business where execution, not intent, decides outcomes. He shares lessons from the frontlines on why the second and third outlets are the true test of scalability, and why brands win when they deliver consistency customers can predict.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The discussion goes deep into the economics of running restaurants in thin margins, the \u201ccash in today, cash out today\u201d cycle, and how small leaks across supply chain, rent, and operations can quietly destroy profitability. Kamran also explores franchising versus independent growth, highlighting the power of SOPs and local market intelligence.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">From post-COVID shifts to leadership habits rooted in empathy and ground-level understanding, this episode is a practical playbook for founders, operators, and multi-unit teams focused on building brands that last.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Find us online:\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian-<\/b><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/ashishtulsian\/\"> <span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">LinkedIn<\/span><\/a><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan- <\/b><a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/kamrankhan1\/?originalSubdomain=sa\"><b>LinkedIn<\/b><\/a> <\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_tab][et_pb_tab title=&#8221;Transcript&#8221; _builder_version=&#8221;4.14.8&#8243; _module_preset=&#8221;default&#8221; body_font_size=&#8221;18px&#8221; tab_font_size=&#8221;18px&#8221; tab_letter_spacing=&#8221;1px&#8221; custom_padding=&#8221;40px||40px||true|false&#8221; global_colors_info=&#8221;{}&#8221;]<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kamran, I know the career that you have spent, I mean, Saudi, 25 years. I would want to know a lot about what has changed and what&#8217;s changing. I really want to see, you know, from your eyes, what Saudi was like 25 years back or even, you know, 10 years back and how contrasting, you know, it is today, but I am going to touch upon that. But we&#8217;ll start with the start. Tell me what you do today, and then we&#8217;ll go back to your early years.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I still do what I start my career with almost, I would say, which is hospitality business. In Saudi, my journey started in Accor, the hotel management group. As of today, I lead one of a very established food and beverage company, Arabian entertainment company, also called Tarfeeh. And we operate on the franchise of brands like IHOP, Applebee&#8217;s, both of which are casual landing American, North American brands. And then one of the leading seafood brands from South Africa, Ocean Basket. So I&#8217;m the CEO of the company.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And interesting enough, I worked in this company since 2001, so almost for 18 years, started in 2001, and then left in 2018. And had a brief instant of almost four or five years in a couple of different same industry, I would say, but a couple of different companies, and then rejoined Arabian entertainment company back in 2022. So just complete my three years again in the second innings, if I can put it this way. And there&#8217;s a lot of history and stories in between. But yeah, like, you know, like luck has it, so never thought of, you know, going to be joining back again, Tarfeeh. But yes, I did.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And interesting journey, because when I left Tarfeeh in 2018, my position was Vice President Marketing, Business Development, and Corporate Communications, etc. And I think I was kind of somewhere in my mind dreaming about, you know, or aspiring to be the CEO, which is the obvious next step. And then, you know, big corporates, how things goes and politics and all those, so left the company in 2018. I never thought of, you know, returning back. And during those times, the company was owned by one of the largest groups in Saudi, SEDCO, Saudi Economic Development Company, owned by Bin Mahfouz Group. So they founded the company, and they used to operate, they own the company as a matter of fact. And then they decided to sell it in 2022. And they sold it to an American private equity company, which are the parents, parent company of Tarfeeh right now. And they hunted me, you know, back again. And that&#8217;s how my second inning started in the company.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Wow. I mean, but you started, you started this company in 2001, in hospitality?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In what? Sorry?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">In hospitality?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The same, the same business.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. So there were a few more brands that obviously strategically did not make sense. So we closed them. But yeah, Applebee&#8217;s was signed, but we did not yet started operating it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So in 2001, when you joined, you joined as a?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I joined as a marketing coordinator, which was my first job in this company. Before that, I had like one, one and a half years in Accor And then I started as marketing coordinator in this company, I was reporting to a marketing manager. And he left, I think within, within a few months, he left. And then I was promoted to a marketing manager. And yeah, so the rest is history. And then from there onwards, the director of marketing and business strategy and then vice president. So yeah, interesting.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Fantastic. I think, Kamran, congratulations, because very, very few people, you know, are able to traverse such journeys where you are rising literally from the bottom to top in the same company.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">True.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s one thing to do that in the career, which is also commendable. But when you do that in the same company, I think that&#8217;s far more valuable and inspiring.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">True, true. Very true. And you know, it also, it also gives you a very big advantage. Because for me, when I joined the company again in the second innings, back in 2022, to lead the company as a, so actually, I joined as a COO, chief operating officer. And then, yeah, in 2022. And then almost, I think, eight or ten months down the road, I was promoted to the CEO position. Because the CEO at that time, he left, so I was promoted to the CEO position.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So the advantage, the big advantage that I had was that I knew the company. Obviously, I was one of the core team in opening all these restaurants and brands. Actually, when I rejoined, we signed IHOP just recently, a couple of years back. So Applebee&#8217;s was already there, Ocean Basket was already there. So I knew the brands, knew the team to a large extent, knew the fundamentals of the company. So it was, I would say it was advantageous, not easy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that&#8217;s another story, because the company had to go through a massive, massive turnaround in the last three years, you know, post-COVID, like every company, there is, I think, in the modern era, if you write a book, we have to write it, always categorize it, you know, pre-COVID and post-COVID. So similar story for this company as well. But yes, it was challenging, but with a lot of advantage, because like I said, I was already there for.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What you&#8217;re saying is, you know, really, I think it&#8217;s important and it&#8217;s extremely underrated. How, you know, when I, I actually generally, I&#8217;m a big advocate of people compounding their professional life in one domain, in one industry, in one company, if they can, for the longest, longest period of time. Unless, of course, you&#8217;re saying that a company is not doing anywhere, several problems.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right, right.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But, and the reason is that in your professional career, your muscle memory is underrated.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">:<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sure.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Your relationships, your understanding and intuitive, or rather your intuitive understanding of where you&#8217;re working, working with, how&#8217;s it going to land? What, you know, what are the ways around the town? What is the layout of the land?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you&#8217;re continuously moving, shifting, you know, places, you lose on that compounding and you lose on, you know, being able to build on the foundation that you had believed. So that&#8217;s commendable, but it also takes a lot. It&#8217;s not that easy because, you know, once you are also old in the system. Exactly. You know, for you to continuously refresh your value, continuously up your game, continuously prove, you know, that you&#8217;re worth more or you&#8217;re also evolving is very, very difficult. What was that process? How did you evolve or what are the effort you made to evolve?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">A very interesting question. I would have come to that. You know, sometimes, and I remember somebody saying that, Kamran, beware, don&#8217;t become a dead vegetable. And I still remember, you know, those two words, because it&#8217;s natural when you work in an environment, in a company, in a culture for so long, chances are that you may become complacent and kind of very relaxed in that comfort zone. You&#8217;re talking about 18, 20 years, long, long period. But I think one thing that kept me going was really the never-stopping hunger of learning something new.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it wasn&#8217;t something, I will be very honest, designed that way. No, it wasn&#8217;t. But I guess somewhere, you know, I had it in my blood or in my character, in my nature. So I remember, so I, you know, I did my MBA in marketing. So my background, educational background is marketing. My experience for most part of it is marketing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But I remember I, which is kind of, I would say, you know, I have to, you know, say it with a pinch of cautious as well. I used to find it difficult to say no to things, which is, yes, you know, as per books and theories is not a good thing. It&#8217;s a disadvantageous thing. But I&#8217;ll tell you how it was very, very positive for me. So I was asked to be a, for example, a committee member in a supply chain committee or an HR committee member or a, you know, come on, make a recruitment trip to the Philippines, for example, or to India or to, you know, different parts of the world. And I found it very difficult to say no and kept doing it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But later on, what I found out is that the advantage is that silently I was building these muscles, this knowledge across different, you know, different layers of the company, different departments of the company, which proved to be the most advantageous thing for me in my career. So I was always involved in sales forecasts and budgeting and supply chain issues and HR issues. And, you know, if there was a new employee handbook made, what new rules should be introduced, so anything and everything.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And at times, yes, you know, I did find it a bit difficult and stressing. But then I realized that whenever the management or the board kind of, you know, got stuck in something, I had a feeling that, you know, their go-to guy would be Kamran, you know, Kamran, take care of this and I would do my level best. So coming back to the point that I was saying that, and this is what I, you know, when I mentor somebody, of course somebody, and I keep telling my team that, yes, do say, do learn to say no, that&#8217;s a must today. But understand the difference. If you are getting, you know, these things, consider them as an opportunity and they are really an opportunity. So there are instances, yes, where you have to say no, but in career, in places, in situations, in times when you have such kind of opportunity to get involved in something which is not your area, I think it could turn out to be one of the biggest advantages because that&#8217;s exactly what happened with me, proved to be in my case. So that was, you know, that was my kind of evolution in the company.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think you have encapsulated it beautifully because two things are, again, underrated. One, getting things done. Right. I think just being, you know, high ownership about it and, you know, raising your hand and saying, hey, I&#8217;m gonna give it a shot. I think what you just said, like if I repeat, you know, whenever management was stuck or there was something that was unstructured, uncertain, unknown, there were too many variables. Kamran was the guy who would be called.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that&#8217;s the shortest path to be in, you know, the hell of hard work. But that is also the shortest path to be visible, to be seen and to be appreciated whenever you do well. Right, right. And I think this entire notion that you&#8217;re pointing at, that there isn&#8217;t, I mean, it&#8217;s important for people to say no. I think I personally feel in the professional context, it is taken like in a, it is probably either preached in the wrong way or it is very comfortably accepted in the wrong most way. I think when to say no is much more about, is it taking away something from what you are primarily responsible for? Or is it going to take away something from the quality of delivery that you&#8217;re going to make? Right. Separate problem. But even for that, you need to give it a shot once at least, right? You need to, Sachin Tendulkar, the god of cricket, he was given captaincy twice. And he said no always.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But then he tried it once and he failed in his craft. And he actually said, hey, you know what, I don&#8217;t want to be a captain. One, because I don&#8217;t want to be a captain, which is a big deal. Who says no to be a captain? Who says no to be the CEO? Only the one who realizes who they are and who they are not.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the second thing he said, well, I may be an average captain, but it is taking away from my batting. Exactly. Which I&#8217;m excellent at. And I don&#8217;t want to give that away. Which is super. But I think in the professional context, the way saying no is being talked about, it&#8217;s almost like, you know, very victimized way of saying it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As if somebody is trying to take advantage of you and you are supposed to say no. I don&#8217;t think so. I think you&#8217;re right. I mean, in professional context, even as an entrepreneur, as a company, you know, for us as a company, if we actually keep saying no to a lot of things, we will never discover you know, what we don&#8217;t know. Most of our blind spots are stuck in, you know, a random yes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Very true.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Which even may fail, but it&#8217;ll open a different portal for us.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">True. True. Very true. Very true. And you know, this is, these are some of the, I would say some of the, and now that, you know, you deal with this very, very younger generation, you know, one of the challenges that we often face in the leadership position is really because not only the company, when you have these young employees in the company or in your team, wherever you go, it&#8217;s incumbent, it&#8217;s your responsibility to coach them as well.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And one of the challenges, one of the toughest things that I find now at this stage of my career is really how to, how to maneuver them, you know, through, through this thing, because, and I always tell, you know, these, these young kids who joined the team, be patient. And this is, I guess, one of the, one of the biggest thing lacking or biggest trait lacking, unfortunately, in the youngsters. They&#8217;re not patient. Things don&#8217;t come easy in life, things don&#8217;t come easy in career.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But current generation has been getting things easier, if not easier.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I guess, you know, I guess what&#8217;s happening, the point that I&#8217;m trying to make on impatient, you know, it&#8217;s the age of social media. So you want to have instant gratification, you want to have instant likes and instant comments and sharing and whatnot, which is not the case in practical life, you know, in your personal life, in the corporate life, this is not the case. A liking is going to take time, be it your boss or be it your spouse or be it your friend, it&#8217;s going to evolve and it needs time.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that&#8217;s the point that I&#8217;m trying to make. And, you know, which I keep telling youngsters that give yourself time, you know, don&#8217;t be that impatient, that you want to have an impact immediately, you want to prove yourself, you want to and, you know, ask any leader, she or he did not plan everything so systematically that I&#8217;m going to be here in two years and here in and after three years or four and it just happened, just live in the moment, do your best in the moment and things will evolve, things will grow. So this is one of really, I find it very challenging with, you know, with this generation, the younger generation is that they&#8217;re very impatient. And, you know, they like to achieve very quickly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">They like to grow very quickly. It&#8217;s good to be ambitious and good to be hungry. But then don&#8217;t remember there are others as well in, you know, in the company that you&#8217;re living in, the family that you&#8217;re living in, the friend circle, the network, and everybody is trying for something.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think it is just social media is just one part of it. I think things are instant. You know, life has really become so easy to live, like to survive.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I call it life at your doorstep. So you want food, you want clothes, you want watch, you want whatever you want, just, you know, click a button. It&#8217;s going to be 24, 48 hours at your door.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So your brain is, I mean, whenever you want dopamine, from Candy Crush to watching reels to TikTok to whatever, everything is literally available to you. Now, you know, how many times I mean, how many opportunities does people have to persevere through a certain cycle? Yeah, there is not much. And I think that&#8217;s where this is really, really difficult. What you&#8217;re saying, I completely agree. I mean, we face the same thing where people are really flimsy and fragile.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, they either want to achieve everything tomorrow morning, or they want to quit. It&#8217;s a make and break.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, just I remember an example, a funny incident. So a few years back, I had this very, very young employee, and he gave a presentation. So there was a presentation on something, and he gave a presentation.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the presentation was, oh, it was a decent presentation. And there were a couple of other presentations as well. And so after the presentation, the employee came to me and, you know, wanted to seek some time. And so I have this open door policy in the company, you know, you can come and, but of course, respect everybody&#8217;s time. But yeah, you want to discuss something? Hey, just knocking, you don&#8217;t need to take an appointment or fix a meeting.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So employee came and said, really very sorry, and very emotional, like what happened, said that seems that you didn&#8217;t like my presentation. I said, no, on the contrary, it was very good. Why? Did somebody say something or anybody gave you any feedback? He said, no, because you were quiet, you didn&#8217;t say anything, you didn&#8217;t, I said, oh, you mean, I didn&#8217;t click the like button? I was like, excuse me, I&#8217;m like, I didn&#8217;t click the like button.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m like, I said, you know, maybe your presentation was so good that, you know, I didn&#8217;t have any comment was fantastic. It&#8217;s fine. So and then again, you know, went through that coaching session that it&#8217;s not about, you know, I don&#8217;t ask a question, don&#8217;t give you a comment, you know, that I don&#8217;t like it. Maybe, you know, there could be several reasons. So that was the point that I was, you know, trying to make.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kamran, take me to your early years. What was, where did you grow up? And what was the childhood like?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right. So I did my schooling very, very young, started in India. And from a town called Aligarh, very close to the capital, New Delhi. And that&#8217;s where I&#8217;m from. And so grew up there. And then we left for Nigeria. My dad was an academician. He&#8217;s retired now. So happily settled back in our hometown.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But he loved travel. He loved to explore. And he was the first from, you know, his generation to travel abroad, you know, and that to a country like Nigeria, Africa, you know, it&#8217;s just like the other part of the world. So went to Nigeria. I studied there up until fourth or fifth grade. No, sorry, up until seventh grade, as a matter of fact. Yeah. So until seventh grade study. So that was, you know, a lifetime experience as well.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Different times, of course. And, you know, really enjoyed that was our first experience, you know, traveling abroad, India and, you know, being Africa. So in Africa, you know, things are very, very different. But yes, enjoyed it. Schooling was very different. But we were treated very nicely and very exclusively, you know, being the fact that we are foreigners.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So did you feel that as a kid?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, yes. Oh, yes. You get a very, very special treatment. I remember during those days, we were treated very, very exclusively because we were foreigners. So I don&#8217;t know what&#8217;s the situation now. But during those days in any school, even good schools, the bare minimum punishment that you would get if you&#8217;re late or, you know, doing something wrong is lashes and lashes with the leather, you know, leather.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, the actual lashes, you would get it on your on your like your kneel down, then, you know, you&#8217;re late. So let&#8217;s say they&#8217;re like 15, 20, you will kneel down and, you know, you get lashes. So the advantage that we used to have, like, you know, we were treated as the soft toys.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, you know, they would all, you know, yes, you kneel down, so you&#8217;re, you know, in one corner, but they wouldn&#8217;t really hit you at all. Because it was just one hit for us, we would perhaps die or faint. So we were given really very special treatments. But good days, I have very, very fond, very good memories of Nigeria. So we came back, you know, after four or five years, staying there, then we came back. And that&#8217;s also during that time, my passion for traveling also. So my father loved traveling.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, you know, whenever we used to travel back during holidays or vacation from Nigeria back to India, we make sure that we stop somewhere in Europe and, you know, a couple of days in UK or Switzerland or Amsterdam or wherever. So that&#8217;s how we started, you know, I started even this love for traveling as well. And then came back to India, did again early schooling there on up until 10th and then again continued in graduation as well. So I did my graduation in chemistry, Bachelors of Science. Yeah, so wanted to be a doctor like everybody else, you know, during those days, you have two professions, you either want to be a doctor or you can be an engineer or just do nothing. You&#8217;re good for nothing, basically.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Indians, I mean, Indians have a regimented program.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right, right. So couldn&#8217;t qualify in my first attempt. I gave a total of two attempts, I couldn&#8217;t qualify. And that was very heartbreaking for me. And I kind of like, you know, you know, what&#8217;s going to be next? Like, do I have a career? Do I have a life? So what&#8217;s the option I got was like chemistry. I&#8217;m like, oh, so, you know, here we go. So we entered chemistry and started, did my BSc in chemistry. Not that I was in fond of or in love of the subject, but you know, that&#8217;s what I got.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you remember organic chemistry?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, my God. I mean, I remember. So, oh, my God, organic chemistry. So physical chemistry used to be the easiest for me, because I guess there were not too many of those, you know, hexagonal shapes and designs. So I remember, you know, sitting in those classes and trying to remember the periodic table, you know, relate a song with it or something. So that was my best, I would say my best memories of, but I enjoyed it. And then after doing chemistry, again, the question, you know, stood in front of me that next what? So, you know, I don&#8217;t want to be a scientist. I don&#8217;t want to do postgrad in chemistry. It was kind of tough, hard, dry and boring. So, hey, during those days, it was the craze of MBA. So everybody wanted to do an MBA. So and then my father at that time, he joined in Saudi Arabia, and that was back in 92, I guess, 93, maybe.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you were graduating.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I was graduating. I was doing my BSc. So I told my dad, I want to travel. I want to travel to either US or, you know, Australia or UK somewhere. I want to do MBA from there. So it&#8217;s fine. Okay. So I tried myself and, you know, got admitted in Australia, Central Queensland University in Sydney campus, international campus. So did my MBA from there.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that&#8217;s, I would say my span of life that I spent in Australia, the few years that I spent in Australia were, I think they shaped me to a large extent to what I am today or where I am today. Of course, MBA, yes, that was, you know, one thing. But I would say the odd part time jobs that I did there were far more important and life teaching lessons that I would say more than any post-graduation course or any professional course. So that was my portion in Australia. Then, you know, did my MBA.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What was like, what part of your worldview got expanded if you remember those feelings?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. So I did perhaps most of the, you know, the part time jobs. It was kind of, okay, let me try this. No, it&#8217;s difficult. Let me try this. So I worked as a waiter in restaurants, you know, janitor, as, you know, telesales, as a security guard, as you name it. And then finally, I guess I found my passion and love in sales. And that&#8217;s, you know, that&#8217;s where I kind of spent some time in sales. So I was a salesman for a telecommunication company.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Actually, as a matter of fact, for two telecommunications company at different times. Telstra, which is one of the biggest or the parent telecommunication company of Australia, worked for them, worked for another company, Optus also as well. And I think the sales portion or the sales job really taught me a lot of lessons, really taught me the life lessons, the grounded lessons, how to manage yourself, how to meet the expectations of others.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You only have few minutes to make that sale, you know, to turn around, you know, that or turn around the, you know, the customer that you have. And so that portion, I would say, of my life, very interesting. You know, like I said, I learned a lot how to manage myself, how to manage expectations, situations, tough situations, how to sell, how to convince, how to take rejections, how to take no and keep moving for the whole day. And of course, many, many, many incidents and many, many good learnings there. And one of, I remember, I even remember his name, one of my team leaders there, his name Campbell, I still remember decades, decades back, Campbell Ferguson, if I&#8217;m not mistaken. So he told me so.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He was always, every morning, he was giving us those motivational talks and everything. And of course, when you go for a, you know, when you go for a sales job and you&#8217;re knocking from door to door and you get different people, you know, somebody will shout at you, somebody will just slam the door at your face, somebody will be nice, different people. So I remember he told me one thing, which I still remember today, and I take it as a life lesson.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He said, guys, remember that with every no, you&#8217;re getting close to a yes. So if that day you&#8217;re going to knock 50 doors, and let&#8217;s say on the first door, you get a no, second door, you get a no, and destiny has written a yes on the 10th door. So just, you know, just, you don&#8217;t know on which door you&#8217;re going to get a yes. But just remember that you&#8217;re just, you know, closing the nos one by, you&#8217;re checking them out one by one. So you&#8217;re getting closer. It&#8217;s just that have, again, the patience. So that was a life lesson that I still remember that, you know, with every no, you&#8217;re getting close to a yes. So very, very important.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think that&#8217;s a powerful, I think that&#8217;s the power of perspective. Right. Right. It can turn, you know, some of the worst situations of feeling or experiences into something, you know, really positive. There&#8217;s this favorite book of mine called Man and His Search for Meaning in Life, a very popular book, This Thin, written by Viktor Frankl. And this book&#8217;s gist is that he basically makes a very counterintuitive point.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He basically says that humans are not trying to avoid suffering. They are trying to avoid meaningless suffering. Right. And he goes on to say that you give a man a reason to suffer. And he will go through it smiling. And then he talked about, you know, examples of, you know, how he said, if you if you ask a man to walk 10 miles in scorching heat in summer, he may feel that he&#8217;s getting punished for what. He said, but you tell the same man that, hey, if you walk this 10 kilometers in scorching heat every day, I will take care of your kid&#8217;s education. And he said, you see the same man walking those 10 kilometers, suffering the same physical pain. Right. But with a smile. In fact, he may be singing, dancing and having a time of his life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He&#8217;s now walking for his kid&#8217;s education.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I think, you know, I keep going back to that book from, you know, for that perspective that, you know, how Campbell, you know, his perspective allowed, you know, you guys to look forward to the nose instead of, you know, dreading them and avoiding them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, I remember and I would like to, you know, tell you about one of the incidents exactly to the point that you were just saying that if there is a motive or I would say an incentive maybe. So I remember during those one of those sales sales days job of my life. So I remember it was raining heavily, very heavily.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And obviously that day, as per the company rules, since you&#8217;re a sales person going out walking on roads, so you have the flexibility you want to go, you want to go, you can go if you want to go back home, go back home or just be in the office. So that day, I remember Campbell, he said, so as you guys know, you know, as per the policy, you know, you&#8217;re not bound to go out today in the territory. You can go back home, sit in the office, do whatever. But if you do go out today, so I have an incentive, a bonus that I want to announce. So with every order that you&#8217;re going to bring. So I remember during those days, if you if let&#8217;s say, for example, using a telecom company and then I convert you to a B telecom company for which I was working.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we used to get 15 dollars, 15 Australian dollars for one churn. So for every churn that you&#8217;re going to make for every client that you bring, I&#8217;m going to double it up from my side. So let&#8217;s say today you bring two clients as an example, you know, for $60. So you&#8217;re going to make $120. Trust me, that was the highest. So those two days were the highest. I still remember the highest days, I think, in the entire month. And I remember myself. So I went out, it was raining.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I made it a point that, you know, sometimes you skip like when you get tired, you skip, you know, you have the list in front of you, you skip some of the houses. I made a point that I go to every house because I wanted to, you know, show myself, you know, gain some sympathy. Here is a salesman standing in front of you, you know, all drenched and, you know, dripping.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So and everybody was sympathetic. I remember made, I don&#8217;t remember exactly how much, but I made some good sales because there was an incentive behind it to the point that you were, you know, you just mentioned. So it does have an effect. Yes, absolutely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, I think I think that&#8217;s, but that&#8217;s very, very powerful. Thank you for sharing that. I, I strongly feel that everybody should, you know, have some time that they spend in sales.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, absolutely.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No matter what your personality is, no matter whether you like sales or not, even if you hate it in your bones, you should work in sales. For sure. And especially in your formative years, it is going to do wonders to, you know, your intuitive understanding of other people&#8217;s psychology and, you know, and for your self confidence also self discovery. I think, I think I, my early life in sales, I started my journey with sales as well, like quite randomly. I just opened myself up and told someone that, okay, you know, I&#8217;ll do the sales for you. You tell me, you know, you just, you just build software, but I was also a coder. I said, okay, I&#8217;ll take up the sales part because you&#8217;re not a sales guy, you&#8217;re not good at sales.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I think, I think more than the sales I made, I think the self discovery that happened through the process was phenomenal. Absolutely. I learned much more about myself, you know, than, than the software or the customer that I was talking to.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Very true. Very true. You know, very interesting. The point that you made that everybody I think should go, because I really consider those days or that phase of my life to be, like I said, you know, one of the best in terms of learning, because I&#8217;m just repeating myself that you learn really how to manage yourself. You learn to a large extent, you know, the kind of things that we teach today, emotional intelligence and all those things, those are the lessons that you&#8217;re learning on roads at the doors of people, because the next door you&#8217;re going to knock, you never know who&#8217;s going to come out and in which mood she or he is going to be. And you have to manage the expectations. And so it gives you really, really very, very important, perhaps the most important lessons of your, of your life.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What after Australia?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So then came back, stayed for a very brief period. So my dad was still here. And I used to come here on, you know, me and our siblings. So we used to come here on vacations or in holidays, yeah, in Saudi. And good or bad, at my graduation in Australia, I invited my parents. So, like I said, I don&#8217;t know if it was good or bad. So when they traveled there, you know, that was all cool. And my mom was like, this is way too far away. You&#8217;re not going to, you know, spending your entire life here. You need to come back. So either come back to India or come to Saudi. That&#8217;s, you know, if you&#8217;re in Saudi, at least it&#8217;s very close to your home base.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But not in Australia. This is way too far. And I, you know, me being a, you know, obedient like, I&#8217;m like, OK, well, let me just, you know, finish, you know, everything and barely finish the MBA. And I was I was actually, as a matter of fact, planning to, you know, hunt for jobs and everything. Already had a part time job where I could have had the opportunity of, you know, you know, staying there, but then decided to, you know, come back. So landed in Australia with a return ticket in my hand.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I said, OK, going to give it a try. So my dad got me, you know, an opportunity through one of his friends. So I started working at that time. Accor, you know, opened up or they, yeah, they started the joint venture. And I got the opportunity of a market researcher here. So worked about one year, one, one and a half year, and then left back to India for a brief period. And then they called me again. So we have, you know, we have this company, Arabian Ten Company, who signed a joint franchisee agreement with Applebee&#8217;s and looking for marketing. And so that&#8217;s how I came back.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And we had no background in hospitality. This was just\u2026<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">No, no.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So you entered through the door of marketing.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly. And I guess I think I wouldn&#8217;t be wrong in saying that really nobody plans to be in a restaurant career. I think I&#8217;m right in saying that. And I did not certainly also plan to be in a restaurant business. You can plan to be in a hotel business, in a hotel line. You can go for a hotel management course, wherever you want to go and, you know, Europe, Switzerland and whatever it is. But I really haven&#8217;t come across, you know, courses that you are going to build your career in restaurant business, I think.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So everybody, you can either go hotels. Right. Or you can go become a chef. Right. But there is nothing called restaurant management or owning a restaurant.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. So that was my case as well. So I would say, you know, I entered it accidentally and then kind of started loving it. You know, the part of, I guess that sales thing, you know, kicked in again, that part of dealing with people and, you know, had this marketing mix as well. So that&#8217;s how the journey started with this company. And then we opened the first, I remember the first Applebee&#8217;s in Saudi back in 2003, actually. So it was a couple of years after I joined. And there were other brands.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What were you doing for those couple of years?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we had other brands. So we had a Chinese restaurant chain and then we had an indoor family amusement center as well. So we&#8217;re handling that. And then, you know, it took about a year for the preparation of, you know, launching Applebee&#8217;s as a brand. It was a big, big thing that, you know, during those times back in 2000, early 2000. So, you know, you bring in North American casual dining chain, Applebee&#8217;s or Chili&#8217;s or TGI.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And, you know, they were the thing. They were the big daddies of, you know, the restaurant segment. So that&#8217;s how we started. And then in between, we did sign and we operated brands like Romano&#8217;s Macaroni Grill and, you know, a couple of other brands. So, of course, we opened and then, you know, we closed it, operated for a few years. But again, all in all in the restaurant business.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So as of today, like I said in the beginning, we have IHOP, Applebee&#8217;s, Ocean Basket. Looking forward to now building our own concepts as well. And my passion, you know, has really become, I would say, in the last few years of turning around companies, did that with at least quite a few brands, two or three brands and companies. And that is, I would say, is really becoming my another passion. Of turning around companies because of kind of, again, perhaps, of course, you have all this experience backing you and the skills and everything. But when you land in the real battlefield and you have to turn around the companies or brands, it takes a lot and it takes many, many things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And it&#8217;s interesting. And when you get the result at the end, it&#8217;s really impressive. Same case, like when I joined Arab Entertainment in the second innings in 2022, the company was unfortunately in a big, big financial stress, a big financial stress. And other things, apart from other things as well. So we started the process of kind of restructuring and turning around. And it took a good two, three years. And the company is on very stable and solid grounds as of today.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I am going to double tap on that, because I think that&#8217;s, I mean, I have questions around why, you know, would you even get into that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That can be an interesting and a scary territory. But before that, I&#8217;m intrigued. So you were saying that you were graduating in Australia.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And then on your, you know, like an obedient kid, you decided to follow your mom&#8217;s advice and, you know, come back to this side of the world. Right. But I&#8217;m intrigued because Australia is absolutely 180 degree out culturally from what Saudi is or was back in 2000. Why? Like, what was it? Were you just acquainted with Saudi, given your dad was there and used to visit?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Was that, you know, helping? Or did you, because Australia, I personally feel as a country has a great standard of living. Right. Great quality of life. You know, it&#8217;s a beautiful place. Australians are super chill. Right. My opinion of Australia in 2025 remains exactly the same.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So how did you cope? And what was that like?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I think I have answered this question, I don&#8217;t know how many times, and not perhaps in this kind of setup, but, you know, within the friend circle, in the relatives and, you know, that, why? Like, everyone&#8217;s like, why from Australia to this part of the world?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you answered part of it. One, it was a soft and easy landing for me because of my parents. They were settled here. And another minor reason that I knew the place used to come here in holidays. So again, so when you go to a place in your holidays, you&#8217;re kind of, you know, with your parents pampered and all what you&#8217;re doing is, you know, no studies, no books, all what you&#8217;re doing is going out, chilling places and all those things. So you kind of build a very happy, you know, memory.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That is such a nice way to say that. Yeah, I understand. Your relationship with Saudi was beautiful.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly. Yeah, it was beautiful. So my acceptance was not that difficult. But it&#8217;s a very interesting question because yes, culturally and in every aspect, totally, totally different places, no comparison whatsoever. So for me, even when I started working here, that&#8217;s when I started, you know, touching base with some realities, you know, during those times, those days, yes, there were restrictions and, you know, what you can do and what you can&#8217;t do. And even a very sharp distinction in how we used to operate businesses, even in our case during those days versus these days, which I will touch base on in a moment. But yes, you know, when I came here, so one reason was, you know, because of my parents, like I said.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And second, I guess the opportunity that I got in Accor, again, you know, my traveling thing and then I remember the very first year when I joined, as a matter of fact, the first month, you know, they showed me a plan where I had to travel to France for some sort of course and workshops. So I was like, OK, that&#8217;s cool. That&#8217;s exciting. You know, so I kind of continued. So it was just, you know, being in the flow and I continue and then got the opportunity with this company.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So it wasn&#8217;t really planned, but I guess it wasn&#8217;t that difficult as well. But things were totally different. Yes, things were very, very different. I was not even married, you know, at that time. And another funny thing I remember when I started working here, I think the same month or second month, my dad decided to pack bags and, you know, head back to India. So I&#8217;m like, you guys got me here from Australia and now you decided to go back, leaving me all here. And trust me, at that time as a bachelor, you were not even allowed to go in malls alone unless until you have families.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, there were family sections, correct.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I experienced that. I&#8217;m like, you know, well, that&#8217;s going to be really difficult.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But that was true up until very recently, right?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah, very recently as well. So and I was like, OK, that&#8217;s going to be challenging. But I got so busy. So I told my I put a condition to my parents. I&#8217;m like, so either you&#8217;re going to get me married or I&#8217;m going back. So you choose whatever you want to do.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So anyhow, short story, got married, you know, I think within the first year of being in Saudi Arabia and then kind of, you know, got settled here and, you know, things happen and, you know, started my journey. And like I think perhaps maybe 90% of foreigners, they say in Saudi, the initial plan was to stay here for two, three years, and then I&#8217;m going to just fly out and do something else.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;ve heard that before.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So that too got multiplied easily by 10 and perhaps more. And, you know, here I am today. But I wouldn&#8217;t have had it any other way. I really loved it. I don&#8217;t know, maybe just personally me, but I loved it at that time. Luckily, maybe I didn&#8217;t have to go through those difficulties. Kind of my parents before leaving, they really made sure that they settled me here. They got me home in the nice area. So trust me, the area where I&#8217;m living in Jeddah is the same area, the same district where I was living 25 years back. So we shifted home a couple of times, but it&#8217;s the same area. So we feel like the kids grew up there. So we feel like that&#8217;s home.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We&#8217;ve been there for a quarter of a century. So that&#8217;s home for us. So your question, what you&#8217;re asking, and yes, things have changed. Things have changed rapidly in the last few years. And they have changed towards, they were good back then. Of course, there were some challenges like any other country or culture. But things have opened up. Things have changed. They are changing rapidly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How do you look at, I mean, the fact, and this question is less about whether it was bad before or it&#8217;s good now. I think this question is just about, I want to understand how is this change being perceived? Because you have been living here for 25 years. And you chose to be in this land 25 years back. So, you know, whether good or bad, I think you&#8217;re, I&#8217;m sure your lens was, you know, quite on the good side. How is this change being perceived? Like what&#8217;s happening on ground? How are you looking at it? How are your kids looking at it? What&#8217;s the general view of the people when something that was restricted suddenly opens up? What&#8217;s the current?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Very interesting. It couldn&#8217;t have been delayed any further. It just couldn&#8217;t have been delayed. All the changes that are taking place in Saudi Arabia today. And I, like I said, I.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Why do you say that?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, the reason is with the pace of the world, the globalization that is happening. You know, the businesses that is happening across the world. The world has become just one, I say, one local village. Or, you know, sometimes in business terms, you use glocalization, for example. So, you cannot remain isolated from the rest of the world. And I think the beauty in this country is that Saudi Arabia has kept the core, their culture, the DNA. They have intact and kept it, preserved it very beautifully. And at the same time, open up to the world. Guys, you know, look, this is who we are. This is who we truly are. And myself, I remember when I used to travel to the US or different parts of the world. And they would ask me questions, you know, about Saudi Arabia.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I used to be surprised because their image or perception. Even people living in India, we didn&#8217;t travel to Saudi. Their perception or their image of Saudi was totally different. That maybe very, very closed environment. Or, you know, are we even acceptable? And even back in the days, yes, closed environment. But everybody was welcome. Everybody, you know, it was normal. I mean, yes, there were things that you were not allowed to do.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And there were things that, you know, you do it in your home. Whatever you want to enjoy, however you want to enjoy it. And, you know, the safety, the security, all those things were there back then as well. So I think to the question that you&#8217;re asking, it couldn&#8217;t be delayed because of this globalization thing. You know, you need to rightly so what, you know, today the government and the leadership of this country is doing. For how long are you going to be dependent on oil? Just for how long? We all know it. So they have very smartly, you know, diversified it and opened it up.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I&#8217;m sure you as a businessman or, you know, as a person, when you travel to Saudi today, you see lots, immense, huge opportunity. And I don&#8217;t think today you feel that there are any barriers to doing business here. You have to go through the normal, you know, procedure in the normal course of you know, systems and procedures, whatever the steps are. But you have the opportunity.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">As an outsider, I can tell you, I saw Saudi, I mean, I&#8217;m experiencing it while it is changing and it&#8217;s changing quite rapidly. So, but I experienced Saudi barely three years back. So by that time, the change has already, you know, set in, landing, you know, quite well.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And my team has been coming to Saudi since 2019. So I also know the stories of their experiences in terms of culture shock or in terms of intrigue that, oh, you are not able to, you&#8217;re not able to do this or you&#8217;re not able to do that. So from 2019 to 2022, the pace of change that I experienced was immense. I was almost like, oh, wow, how do you change so fast at a level of a country? It&#8217;s one thing for a country&#8217;s leadership to just say that it is allowed. It is a very different thing for an entire population to lap it up with an equal enthusiasm. And that&#8217;s what I see in the lab where, you know, population is happily lapping up everything. What&#8217;s the, what&#8217;s the view? Like, how do your children, right? They grew up here. How do they look at, you know, this change? Is it like a change which was, there was a latent need for this change? Or was it just like a, like an opportunity, but life was good otherwise?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">See, I would begin a little bit, you know, before that. The credit goes both ends, the leadership of the country and the people of the country as well. If you study the history of, you know, of the world, you will hardly find examples where such a rapid change, changes have happened in places like Singapore or Dubai or, you know, on a structural scale, on a business scale, those kind of things. But if you look at, you know, they had to adjust here a lot of things. And in process of doing that, there could be, you know, there could be turbulence, but there was none whatsoever. And that&#8217;s why I said the credit goes both to the leadership and to the people.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It was a small, the regular course of challenges will be there, like, you know, in any part of the world. And now to your question, what you were saying is, you know, for us, for me, for my family. I&#8217;ll tell you what has changed.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, we were, we liked it back then. We like it today. What has changed for us is, you know, if my kids want to go and watch a movie and I want to go and watch a movie with them, we can go. So there are, you know, theatres available, you can go. Of course, a lot of, you know, entertaining places, you know, compared to before. But that, I would say, a structural change. You know, if my sister, my wife, my daughter, if they want to drive, you know, they can drive. That does two things. You know, that person takes off the burden of being available always as a, you know, as a driver.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">But at the same time, it has opened up a lot of opportunities for women as well of this country. A lot of opportunities in the job sector, they can go out anytime they want, you know, with their friends or business colleagues or, you know, all the opportunities that come with it. And plus, you know, the ease of doing business. So, but I wouldn&#8217;t really talk about the ease of doing business, but for me, on a culture, on a personal level, nothing was forced. I think one of the most beautiful thing that was done here is that nothing was forced during this process. Absolutely nothing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So, opportunities were opened up and you want to be in this, you know, sphere, be in this sphere. You want to be in that sphere. You want to do this fine. You want to do that. And like in any other country or any place on the planet, there are rules and regulations which you have to follow very much here as well. But apart from that, I think this is what changed for us. You know, it&#8217;s more open. You see a lot of tourists here. If you are at Riyadh airport or Jeddah airport, you go to, you know, Medina, even as an example or Mecca, you see a lot of people come to Riyadh, like I was saying, airports. You see a lot of tourists here. I met, you know, a lot of them. They&#8217;re coming here to explore, you know, what is it, you know, mystique, Saudi, the place of birth of lots of religions and, you know, history and culture. So that is what has changed on a personal level. So I think, and it, for example, in Jeddah. So I remember back in the days, decades, decades ago, we used to go to a place called Balad. And this is like kind of a Balad. So it&#8217;s like a downtown where you have shops and, you know, for clothes, for spices, for different things. Now, and there were old houses and everything.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So what they have done now is just one example of what the government has done. They took care of it and they converted it into a kind of heritage place. And if I&#8217;m not mistaken, I think it&#8217;s in UNESCO World Heritage, or if I&#8217;m not mistaken.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is it near Jeddah?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It is in Jeddah, actually, in Jeddah. So you go there and you go to that place and you&#8217;ll be mesmerized. So they have converted these houses. They have, you know, put lighting. They&#8217;ve converted some of the houses in museums. You enter a kind of an experience.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you have lots of, you know, food stalls and people selling stuff.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Is it the old city?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s the old kind of, yeah, it&#8217;s the old kind of old city, basically, you know, if you can put it that way. And it&#8217;s like, for me, it&#8217;s like a wonderland kind of, you know, so I go, I remember we stopped going there for years because, you know, we&#8217;re living a little bit like it&#8217;s a 15 minute drive from our home. But now we make it a point, we go there, you know, with the family and you see a lot of tours there. And I recently saw a documentary in the flight, in Saudi flight, you would see, you know, they show this place. And this is just one example, of course. So, of course.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I see that there is Alula, which is becoming really, really big. I want to visit.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And many. Many such examples, many such examples. This is what opened up, so what the government has done nicely, they have opened up the opportunities for you and pick and choose, do what you want to do. Of course, there are certain rules that you have to abide by, but that&#8217;s it really.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kamran, on the business of restaurants, you know, as you said before, nobody plans to be in the restaurant space and you fell into it from the door of marketing, which probably came from your MBA opportunity. Applebee&#8217;s, IHOP, Ocean Basket, and, you know, and counting. What&#8217;s been the craziest, you know, understanding that you have gathered over last, you know, a few decades about the business of restaurants?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I&#8217;m going to nuance this question because you also said that you&#8217;re planning to do your own concepts. Restaurant is a restaurant, it&#8217;s a beast that you have to, you know, every hour is a new hour, every day is a new day, you have to deliver every day, you know, in the same consistent. It makes it difficult because you have to consistently deliver every day.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Does an American, bringing an American chain to the country versus building your own concept, does it make it easier when an American chain comes where you know the brand, you understand the processes, systems, equipment, even, you know, maybe raw material, etc is imported, or does it make it, you know, what is still difficult when Applebee&#8217;s from US comes here and brings everything to you, what do you do then? I mean, what&#8217;s the difficult part or what&#8217;s the challenge even when something which is figured out is landing on you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Interesting, very interesting question. So I&#8217;ll answer it in two different portions. The first, you touched base on, you know, the restaurant business, the very nature of the restaurant business. And we know that, and jokingly, I always say and tell to my team that if you have worked in a restaurant business, you can go and work in any other industry, or you can go and funny enough example, I guess you can you can be a firefighter, you can be in the police, you can be in the Secret Service, you can be in wherever and whatever, because you are dealing with hundreds of different challenges and experiences and issues, literally on a daily basis.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And we know that there are customer related issues, there is technology related issue, there is sales related issue, there is a municipality related issue, there is a supply chain related issue. It&#8217;s just endless, the list is endless. So one of the things that you have to be like always say, almost as a ritual, when I get up in the morning before going to the office, I&#8217;m like, okay, so bring it on, like, what&#8217;s on today?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, we got that restaurant shut down, because that happened, and this happened. And this, you know, the license renewal, and we launched this campaign, we ran out of it, the campaign started very well, we ran out of the product. And so what&#8217;s on today, just bring it on. So that&#8217;s, again, you know, you know, we, so you have to be really, nobody plans it. But I say it, I think I should say it with a lot of cautious, but the sweetest and the easiest way of committing suicide, if you&#8217;re afraid of anything else, any other way is entering a restaurant business, if you don&#8217;t love it. So let me add this as well. You have to be in this business, should be in this business. If you, if you love it, if you have the passion for it, or maybe love is, you know, I will take out, but if you have the passion, if you know what&#8217;s going to take, you may not fully have the love or the passion for it. But you shouldn&#8217;t, you should be aware.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You cannot enter a restaurant business because you love food.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly. No, no, you just can&#8217;t. If that&#8217;s the case, and I was reading somewhere, one of the highest failure rates for restaurants are for those restaurants that are opened by chefs themselves. And that proves the point. Who better than a chef understands the business, understand the food. But it&#8217;s not only about the food, there are just countless elements that goes in the equation.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That\u2019s one part of it.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly, that goes in the equation. So that&#8217;s one part of the second part that you asked. And it&#8217;s also a very, you know, interesting, intriguing question. So what, what do we do as a local franchisee when we bring international brand? So I&#8217;ll tell you, you know, what are the things that comes with it? I&#8217;ve been in this business, meet a lot of people, you know, it&#8217;s not a very big circle.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And you know, most of the people, if you don&#8217;t know them personally, you still know them. Either through social media, or you&#8217;ve met them in conferences, or your keynote stints. And, you know, you kind of meet people who are leading local brands, you meet people who are leading international brands. When you bring in a brand like any international brand, and, okay, in this case, American brands that we operate, or for that matter, South African brands also very good when it comes to, you know, franchising. One of the biggest advantages that you get with it, their standards, the SOPs that they have built over decades and decades, and millions of millions of investments is gold. It&#8217;s very valuable.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">When I meet, I remember meeting a burger joint owner quite successful without naming it. And we were at that point interested in acquiring, buying it. And the guy he quoted, he had one store in Jeddah, and he quoted, I think around 15 or 20 million real. (Brazilian Real) So I&#8217;m like, so break down the maths for me. And he said, you know, okay, this much I&#8217;ll spend, and the remaining is like my goodwill. And yes, quite popular, quite popular burger joint. I said, Listen, in that amount of money, I can very well build half a dozen of, you know, either my Applebee&#8217;s or, you know, Ocean Basket or other brands.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">He said, Yeah, but look at the traffic that I have, look at the sales that I have. I said, How many stores you have? One. Okay. I said, So let&#8217;s talk back again, when you open the second and the third one in Riyadh, down south or up north. Let&#8217;s talk then. And the story, you know, ended there. And I know the brand today, unfortunately, it&#8217;s struggling. And it goes back to the point that I was trying to make that it&#8217;s not that easy. Today, I always love to give examples. If you&#8217;re standing in a jungle, and you see two burger places in McDonald&#8217;s, and somebody else, but not a big fan of McDonald&#8217;s, but I&#8217;m just quoting as an example. You have that trust in the brand, you know, yeah, what I&#8217;m gonna expect 100%\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s predictable.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly. You know what I&#8217;m good. Chances are you might get a hundred times better burger in you know, the other but you you you very well know, this is my expectation. That&#8217;s what a brand builds. Of course, you have to keep on adding and nurturing. But it brings that confidence, the you know, the quality and you know, all the other elements. So this is the part that you get. But you&#8217;re operating yourself as a franchisee today.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">It&#8217;s my money that I&#8217;m putting. It&#8217;s my capex that I&#8217;m injecting. I&#8217;m the one who&#8217;s selecting the location, then you know, of course, we share with the franchisor as well. I know the local details. I know the market value. I know the customers, the guests that we have. I know the psyche, I know what&#8217;s going to work and what&#8217;s not going to work. Again, countless examples that I&#8217;ve seen that you know, we share back with the franchisor, these kind of things are going to work here in terms of menu. And this is, you know, what&#8217;s not going to work.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So we are the kind of yes, they provide the car to us. But we know the roads, we know the the way we know how to drive, we know where is the gas station. So it is very, very important that you should know you you have to know how to operate that business. And the advantage that comes like I said, you you get all these good, you know, SOP and you get the brand name with it. But I will add another thing to it that now in Saudi and I will definitely give credit to the local to the domestic brands in the restaurant category in the cafe business. They&#8217;re doing a fantastic job. They&#8217;re doing a fantastic job. They have learned from the mistakes. They know what it takes to run a restaurant and what it takes to run a chain of restaurants. They know the difference now. Of course, very well traveled. So if you visit some of these local restaurants, local cafes, they are doing phenomenal job, fantastic job. It was a learning curve. And still I believe is a learning curve. In restaurant business.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I always say is standardization is the biggest thing is the biggest thing. I don&#8217;t strive to be the best. But I strive to be consistent. Yes, I have to be good. For me, there&#8217;s there&#8217;s no definition of best like best means what, like the we have the best steaks, like means what, like we have the best ribs means what I mean, the best for you.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">How are you comparing it with? What&#8217;s the benchmark?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What&#8217;s the benchmark? Yeah. So what I strive to do is that I want to be good in food and service in you know, whatever the other elements and I want to be consistent. I want to make sure that I build your expectations. And you know, what am I going to what am I going to expect if I go to this particular brand? So that&#8217;s what comes with international brands. But like I said, the local brands are doing also phenomenal.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So what has changed with local brands? You&#8217;re right. I mean, I can see this phenomena. Not only here, I can see this everywhere in the world, by the way. I can see that in Southeast Asia, I can see that in India, I can see that across Europe. But Europe is still not a very, I mean, Europeans still are like they like their restaurants small and boutique and you know, but you know, I see this land every day there is a new brand being spun by locals and some of them are doing phenomenally well. What has changed?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I think one of the understanding that has come in you know, in the younger generation especially is that what is stopping us in doing it? Don&#8217;t we have the know-how? Yes, we do. Don&#8217;t we have the capital? Yes, we do. Don&#8217;t we have the market? Yes, we do. So what is it that&#8217;s lacking? Why can&#8217;t we do it?<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So in the beginning, when this wave started, and I&#8217;ve been on that side of the table as well, consultants were doing very well. So if a person like me, you know, would go and do start doing consultancy at that time, I know the equation, I know the restaurant business, so they would come to me and you know, I put a certain fee and build the concept for them. That is not the case now. There are very, very a lot of successful brands today, local brands, they are built by themselves, they go, they study, they have the know-how. So it&#8217;s just the belief. It&#8217;s nothing but the belief.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">We have everything today, you know, in this country, whatever you need, the support is there, the knowledge is there, the capital is there, the market is there, it&#8217;s open, the opportunities are there. So again, I think the point was like, why not? And this younger generation, you know, they travel, you know, they went for their studies to US and to Canada, they like the stuff there. So why not to do it ourself? So that&#8217;s why this, you know, this wave of local. But the one thing that I cautious very much, you know, within, you know, a lot of my friends circle, those were investing, they invested, is one thing, is that don&#8217;t think that and a lot of times it does happen.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Don&#8217;t think that everybody says in restaurants, it&#8217;s a cash rich business. It&#8217;s a very cash rich business, see how many customers are walking through and, you know, and then, you know,\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s actually one of the biggest myths.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly. And I say, I say, I always say that it&#8217;s a daily cash in business. And it&#8217;s also a daily cash out business as well daily. So if you&#8217;re getting in cash daily, you&#8217;re also doling out the cash daily, literally daily, and the challenges that comes in. So a lot of times what I&#8217;ve also seen is that they have the money, they enter into this business, they invest, and they, you know, they build a brand. And then all of a sudden, they realize like, oops, we didn&#8217;t take into consideration the challenges supply chain or the manpower thing, or you know, whatever it is, the increasing rentals or so those challenges, you have to be you have to know what you&#8217;re entering. So it&#8217;s not that as cash rich business, you and me, we know very well what are the, you know, what are the percentages we deal with when it comes to the, you know, to the last line of the paper of the sheet.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So it&#8217;s not that it&#8217;s not that fat, it&#8217;s literally so a point a couple of points in supply chain lost a couple of points lost in the real estate or the rental increases can really offset your balance sheet. So it&#8217;s very important to know what what&#8217;s the game you&#8217;re into. It is it is a good business. But I always say yes, it&#8217;s a heavy cash involvement is not cash rich, heavy cash involved, there&#8217;s cash coming in, there&#8217;s cash going out as well.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you spend time on ground?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I do.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:\u00a0<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What part of like what percentage of time you&#8217;re goes on?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Unfortunately, not too much, which is which is wrong, I would say. Because and and the reason was the last few years, I was very, very heavily involved in turning around the company along with the team. And that really, you know, forced me to be a little bit spending more of my time in the strategic aspect, you know, planning and executing and all those things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So really didn&#8217;t get too much time. But yes, whenever I do, I make it a point that every now and then I&#8217;m traveling in each of the markets, visiting team, talking to the team members, spend time with the GMs. That&#8217;s, that&#8217;s very important. Because if if, like I was hearing one of the I think, one of the podcasts of Simon Sinek, and he very interestingly said that you ask any of the CEO said, you know, you know, the most important, you know, equation of most important part of the business for me is customers.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And very interestingly said, so when was the last you met and visited, you know, or met the customer, which is very true. So you need to make sure that you are taking care and you&#8217;re talking to different layers of the people. So in the last few years, when I was very heavily involved in turning the company around, I made it a point, I&#8217;m sure that you know, talking to the different layers of people, not always getting the chance to talk to the soldiers that are on the battlefield. So I made sure that at least I&#8217;m talking to the GMs, I&#8217;m talking to the operations manager or the area managers, just to make sure that I&#8217;m at least close to the ground reality and whenever get an opportunity to talk to the our ground soldiers, absolutely.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Do you remember any instance where talking to a frontline soldier or a random customer conversation, you had a light bulb moment?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So I&#8217;ll tell you an incident, a very interesting incident. So I usually go to a restaurant, you know, anytime unannounced, weekend, weekday, morning, evening. So I reached in one of our stores, one of the evenings, I think it was around roughly around eight o&#8217;clock. And it was weekend. And the house was full. Kitchen was just going crazy.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that day, I think we were short for one prep guy didn&#8217;t show up or something. And the GU guy was washing the dishes was shunting between this and then also going doing some prep. And he was, I could clearly see he was struggling and the GM was struggling. And you know, he had to manage the floor as well. So I told the GU guy, I said, go and handle the prep. I can&#8217;t handle the prep. But I know how to wash the dishes. I&#8217;m going to handle for you. He just gave me that look. And he thought like he&#8217;s doing something wrong, like, just fine, just go do it. I&#8217;m going to wash dishes. Like, no, sir.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;m sorry. No, he just didn&#8217;t. I said, just go do the prep. It&#8217;s fine. Instead of going to the prep, he went to the GM and he&#8217;s told, you know, Mr. Kamran is here. He wants to do this. And so the GM came around. He&#8217;s like, no, sir. I&#8217;m like, guys, just wasting your time. Go and do them. I&#8217;m just, you know, I&#8217;m going to handle it here. So I started washing dishes.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And the shift finished and everything. I stayed there, I think, a couple of hours. And I was, you know, I kept washing dishes for almost like, almost a couple of hours, I would say. Just asked him, you know, to tell me how to switch on this button and, you know, clean hair and did that. And I want to quote as an example. And I was, I think, VP, vice president at that time as well. And even taking care of the operations of some of the brands as well. And at the end of the shift, the GM came and said, sir, the staff they want to talk to you. I&#8217;m like, sure. Yeah. Sure. He said, no, I don&#8217;t know, sir. Very honestly, I don&#8217;t know. They just want to talk to you. So I stood, you know, with them like, OK, guys, so the restaurant is closed and everything.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And all of a sudden everybody started clapping and thank you, sir. And I was kind of embarrassed. But I&#8217;ll tell you what I saw in their eyes. And two guys actually said, sir, if you ask us to do anything and just, you know, sir, you ask us to do anything, we&#8217;ll do it for you. I said, yeah, I know. I know that. And thank you. And it&#8217;s not that I knew that you would do it anyway. That&#8217;s the team, you know, that I have.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">The point that I&#8217;m trying to make here, if, again, the good definition of a leader, we have different, you know, transformational leader and say, you know, autocratic leader and, you know, I always believe, you know, when you reach situational leadership, that&#8217;s the best category for me. Sometime you have to lead from the front. Sometime you just stand at the back, let the team be in the front, let them celebrate, let them take the charge.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometime just be in the middle of the pack and just, you know, just be there, be with them, one amongst them. And this will give you long term, you know, long term some benefits. So, again, and there are things like that, that I do sometimes if I&#8217;m in the kitchen, you know, try if I can, you know, help them. Not like us in the last two or three years, unfortunately, I missed that. But yes, if you do those things, if you are with them, amongst them, they will stand for you thick and thin and sunny days, rainy days, they will stand with you. And because at the end of the day, who&#8217;s moving the company, who&#8217;s moving the brand? Are these people? Are these soldiers that are, you know, that are moving the brand?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s a beautiful example. And kudos to you for, you know, for attempting to do that, because these things can, it&#8217;s not only about, you know, some false prestige or designation, I think it&#8217;s also about that, you know, at times, and I see that leaders are afraid, you know, to be on the ground with the people, because it can, you know, also expose them in case they are carrying any false ego. So I think, I think probably your team gave you the applause, because probably that, you know, they discovered that there is no, there&#8217;s no false ego. And there is no facade of niceness.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">There&#8217;s something, there&#8217;s something real.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Very important, very, very critical. One of the things that I&#8217;ve learned, and I&#8217;m still learning, and I would like to really add it. What does a, what does a CEO do really, if you think of, you know, from from this perspective, or a leader, could be a CEO, it could be a, you know, whoever it is, what do they really do? If you if you if you think of chief of the army stuff, let&#8217;s say, or CEO saying, am I the one who is taking care of the operations? Am I the one who&#8217;s taking care of the marketing, the IT, the finance, supply chain, I&#8217;m not the one.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If you are the leader, if you are the CEO, most likely, and from the right company, you know, with the right hiring structure and everything, they know that you have all those things. And that&#8217;s why you are a CEO, you&#8217;re a leader. It&#8217;s how you connect the team, it&#8217;s how you connect the people.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So day when I sit in the office, like I said, I&#8217;m not taking care of the operations, the supply chain, the IT, marketing, whatever it is. All what I&#8217;m doing is taking care of the team of the people who are taking care of these departments and making sure they they blend together as a team. Of course, there are strategic decisions and you know, investments and growth plans and all those things. But then again, this is all what I&#8217;m doing. So I think, as a leader, your one and only job is to make sure that you bring your team together, you gel them in a way that, you know, they, they make sure they take because they&#8217;re the one who are taking care of the entire house. So I think one of the biggest lessons that I&#8217;ve learned after being, you know, a CEO here or in a coffee company is really how to bring your team together because they will do wonders. Like I said, you are not the one who are doing all those things.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Did you also experience and felt that dish washing is extremely inefficient and it&#8217;s, you know, there are not enough good tools for washing dishes?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I&#8217;ve washed cars. I&#8217;ve washed dishes. I have cleaned, let me tell you, and I would love to, you know, if you have a little bit of time, I&#8217;ll tell you a few of the small stories. When I first cleaned, the first time when I cleaned the floor of a cafe, I remember New Orleans Cafe in Sydney. And when I cleaned the toilets, I got tears in my eyes. The moment I bent down to, you know, just pick up, I think, some trash or, you know, clean them up. And all of a sudden, all I could see is just shoes of people. And, you know, you know, there&#8217;s everybody sitting, there&#8217;s a tissue there, kids playing. So I saw the world from that down under.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">I was down there. And I got really emotional, a lot of mixed feelings. And I was like, okay, there are people who are doing, who are making a living out of this from how many years. And so this needs to be respected. Of course, the second feeling was like, okay, I&#8217;ve come here for, you know, studies or make my career, but this is what I&#8217;m doing, mix of emotions and feelings. Same thing when I started, you know, washing cars.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">If I tell you when you go, you know, when you go to wash your car, you sit there, you know, sip on your coffee or juice or whatever, and you see your car being washed, nice. Have you ever thought those three or four people? So there was something called, you know, of course, you wash the car and then, you know, today it&#8217;s automatic as well, and then you, you know, clean it.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And there is this one guy who&#8217;s, and I remember doing those, they used to call like silicone job. So it was like, what are you doing? You have this, you know, this liquid thing in a foam, and you have to just, you know, wipe on the tire. Looks easy and the tire shines, but the day you get, so I remember the day I used to get that job was my worst day. Why? Because if you&#8217;re washing, let&#8217;s say 200 cars, you have to do this one time, get up, go to the second tire, sit down, do this, get up.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, you were doing sit ups.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So if you&#8217;re doing\u00a0 this 800 times in a day, in a span of six, seven hours. So I remember the first time I did it, my legs, I broke, you know, I torn my ligaments and everything. I was like in bed for almost like three, four days. Today, when I go for a car wash, I see through that guy. I know what that guy&#8217;s going through. When I wash dishes and, you know, no matter you wear gloves or whatever, when the water is in your hands for continuous 10 hours, what your fingers will feel here and on this side is different and the pain.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And that&#8217;s how, you know, even if you are a CEO and sitting in a luxurious office, but that has given you a lesson. You know what that person is doing, what&#8217;s the pain that he or she&#8217;s going through. And you will respect that and you will make sure that you take care of that. Sometimes you&#8217;re not able to due to circumstances maybe, but you understand it genuinely, you at least understand. So I think those lessons are very important for any leader to go through.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">That&#8217;s powerful. That&#8217;s again, powerful. Thank you for sharing that. Absolutely. I mean, when I asked you that dish washing question, I was just making my own stupid point because I washed dishes for the first time in my life during COVID at home. And I remember I used to take up that job at 2 a.m. because, I mean, I&#8217;m a late nighter and COVID times were like, you know, there were 24 hours when you&#8217;re at home. So I remember I used to, you know, tell my family that, okay, I&#8217;m going to do the dishes because apparently I couldn&#8217;t find any job at home, which was up to my skill level. So my skill level was perfect for dish washing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And I used to actually wash dishes while listening to podcasts for one, one and a half hour. My wife used to be like, what exactly were you doing for one and a half hours? I was like, I was washing dishes, just making sure that they&#8217;re all clean and very well done. And I remember by I think third month, I was like, you know what, if this sustains for a year, I am going to invent or reinvent a dishwasher because every day when I wash dishes, I&#8217;m like, you know, who made these equipments? These are inefficient. It doesn&#8217;t work.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know, most of the things I can see, you know, design flaws. But what I&#8217;m alluding to is that, you know, as a CEO or as a leader, you know, no matter what your designation is, unless you actually experience the job yourself, your perception of that job always remains, you know, 50-50.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Exactly.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Right. You&#8217;re just observing, like what you just said, right?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Sometimes it could be totally different.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What you just said about like, even like, like fraction of a second before you mentioned that, that, you know, silicone in the tire requires that sit up.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Like it didn&#8217;t land on me. Because when you said, oh, that was that, that is the worst day. It&#8217;s like, how bad it can be? You&#8217;re just doing this. And so, as an observer, it&#8217;s very difficult to exactly feel. True. And that&#8217;s why most of the times, even if, you know, leaders that I&#8217;m, it&#8217;s a note to self, it&#8217;s a note to the world, you know, most of the times when leaders show sympathy and are being nice, they also feel that there was no reciprocation.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because, and while they are being sympathetic, but the fact is that, you know, at times, sympathy doesn&#8217;t really cut it. Empathy is what is needed. And that can only come in. You can&#8217;t pretend it. It can only come in when you have been in that coordinate doing exactly, you know, the same job. That&#8217;s when you figure that, oh, wow, what&#8217;s the difficult part of this job? It&#8217;s not what meets the eye. It&#8217;s probably something that is not visible.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">One of the other, and I would like to say it and because I clearly remember when I used to be in the kitchen and washing dishes as a part-time job. So I gave an example from the car wash. The other thing in the dishwash as an example is, and, you know, for you and just imagine it for a moment. If I give you a job where you have to stand in a corner and your view is a stainless steel thing or a wall, just this close or this close on this side and this side and you have dirty dishes soil dishes here that&#8217;s where your view for 10 hours six days a week that&#8217;s a reality that&#8217;s a reality for a person who&#8217;s washing the dishes in a restaurant in a hotel his or her view is the wall or the tiles here and here and soil dishes here for 10 hours six days a week.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Imagine just try to imagine that doing so you come here in the morning and just stand here so for us forget these things if you even just keep on looking at a nice curtain or or you know a nice uh you know wall how painful and how irritating how difficult will it be and these are things you can never imagine unless until you have been in those situations so if you if you have been into those situations and then you work hard and God gives you that opportunity to be a CEO of a company make sure do whatever you can do of course you just maybe can&#8217;t plant trees or flowers in front of the but just you know be uh you know have the empathy have the sympathy uh and do whatever the best you can do for for them.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Because in return uh they will do wonders for you and even if not wonders even if not wonder they are the one who are literally bringing in the salary that you are getting uh you know sitting in that uh comfortable uh office so they are the one if they don&#8217;t work hard uh like i always say you know the one plate that we sell uh it&#8217;s from that place from where my salary is coming the electricity bill is coming the utility bills coming the rentals are coming everything and the contribution in making that one plate is coming from that geo person to the server to the GM to the guy who cooks it and prepares it everybody so if you don&#8217;t understand these and you don&#8217;t respect you know these steps and every part of the equation uh you can never be an effective leader you can still be a leader because maybe the management chose you the board chose you there but you&#8217;re never going to be an effective uh leader just can&#8217;t be.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Beautiful, that&#8217;s that&#8217;s that&#8217;s really powerful and amazing. Kamran, ell me about your family who are out there?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So um along with my wife i have two kids uh my son he just got admitted into electronics engineering uh back in india interesting\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Oh, wow. Where in India?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">so in the same university where i graduated from aligarh muslim university\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Damn, that\u2019s awesome.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">and the reason i wanted him to be there and for a moment he thought like dad, US, Europe? I said no you go and study there and it was okay except and the reason because a lot of time you know kids born and brought up here they&#8217;re very much in a very protected you know environment everything is very easy comes easily for them i wanted you know him to become a little bit more street smart so i said go there.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">so you basically sent him to uh\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">to the trenches<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">that&#8217;s wild. that&#8217;s that&#8217;s really wild. so what&#8217;s his name?\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><b>B<\/b><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">ut, his name is Hamza, Muhammad Hamza and uh you know the good thing so my parents are there uh we have relatives their cousins there plus he knows the city we have you know we visit every every now and then a few times a year so it well it is a it is a learning uh feel for him but in a little bit controlled away so it&#8217;s not that you know i&#8217;ve thrown him why just exactly..<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">So it as wild as exactly it can be.\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">yeah yeah and the daughter is in uh seventh standard so uh\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">What\u2019s her name?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Her name is Myra uh and uh she&#8217;s the one always upset like you know a dad with daughter will always say she&#8217;s the one most upset with my traveling is like where are you traveling why are you traveling when are you going to come back what time is your flight what time you&#8217;re going to land so when i land she&#8217;s the one who&#8217;s calling me so you know uh so that&#8217;s that&#8217;s my uh my so..\u00a0\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">so i think that&#8217;s an answer to the fact when you told when you tell your wife to not ask a lot of questions\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">yeah i guess so you know uh with kids, one of the things that i&#8217;ve i&#8217;ve learned is your son is always your like like your companion. He&#8217;s there in you know when he grows up he&#8217;s there you know along with you in the life and everything and daughters are your that corner where you can go and literally just you know just just unwind yourself just sit with them talk to them play with them they just they just unwind you in in you know with their presence itself that&#8217;s that&#8217;s what i feel so alhamdulillah uh blessed blessed to uh to have both of them in my life uh and my parents uh they&#8217;re now settled in in india uh i have one sister who&#8217;s also based in jeddah saudi uh my younger brother he owns a events management company uh doing very well uh he&#8217;s based in mumbai but he has office in delhi and bangalore uh he recently started doing events in middle east as well but yeah very very occupied in in india and yeah that&#8217;s that&#8217;s yeah that&#8217;s the family\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">And what do you do to enrich yourself like what&#8217;s your what&#8217;s your routine or you know do you read do you, watch something or do you?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">you know i i i dream of me saying that i read a lot i just dream myself i don&#8217;t actually uh which is bad i guess uh but one thing one habit uh that i have uh is always you know i keep referring back so i have started reading yes there are books that i&#8217;m you know reading or i&#8217;ve read uh but i&#8217;m not a like book guy who&#8217;s reading too much but i&#8217;m always into learning i i really if there&#8217;s something new that i come across new even a new term that i&#8217;ve you know come across today or a theory that is you know bothering my mind a business model or whatever i will immediately go online and you know search for that and look at some case studies so that&#8217;s you know what keeps me kind of busy uh love travel part of my my my job as well and even other than that you know whenever i get the time uh take a brief off you travel with the family uh listening music uh songs is is my best part-time uh i would say activity uh love hearing songs like\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">do you maintain playlists ?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">no not playlist but i&#8217;m a kind of guy whichever whatever the mood hits me uh you know at that particular time either going you know to the office in the morning or you know uh laid back evening or or afternoon sometimes i watch documentaries on the on uh in the in the weekends uh but yeah whatever the mood hits uh but typically they are uh indian bollywood songs either old ones or new ones like i said you know whatever the mood hits but yeah i mean that&#8217;s uh going visiting cafes restaurants not a big eater but yeah love to experience new places in in f&amp;b uh ecosystem\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">what has changed in you as a person? when you introspect in last i don&#8217;t know 10 years 20 years 25 years timeline you choose but what what what a couple things that you feel have changed in you ?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">um there&#8217;s one thing that struck me very very um uh dominantly i would say and that is when when you&#8217;re climbing up the ladder of leadership uh you start getting lonely and lonely in a way uh yes you do have friends and friends circle but you&#8217;re you&#8217;re in that position where you are responsible for the decisions that you&#8217;re making they could be right decisions and they could go wrong as well there are things that you have to execute you have to implement but then you hardly and then so yes you have maybe a board that you&#8217;re presenting something to to the chairman but then you need a side a portion of your heart and mind needs somebody just to talk about it you know just to or even the feelings forget the business side of it just just the feeling itself um i guess uh you know start missing that portion and like often i&#8217;ve heard and i&#8217;m sure uh you have heard and we hear that you know it&#8217;s a very lonely position it&#8217;s a very lonely place to be so you really have to know what&#8217;s your bouncing back you have to have few people in your circle and this is where i started struggling and then i corrected it that you have to have few people in your network in your circle with whom you can just chat don&#8217;t expect uh intelligent answers or recommendations just talk it out this has been this this became a big challenge for me um in the beginning of this leadership uh journey that i have uh and i&#8217;ve you know i&#8217;m still learning uh through it but uh i think this has been one of the most challenging uh things or the things that i&#8217;m developing.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">did you did you find your tribe where you can you know unleash?<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Yeah. um i&#8217;m lucky enough i would say that uh you know in in the same very company so i used to be you know one amongst them i was heading the marketing department and so i have you know quite a few friends uh in the company so i still you know just uh uh there&#8217;s some banter..\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">but do you do you talk to your peers did you i mean the the point that you made is very important right which is uh it the journey becomes lonely because you really can&#8217;t express and share right and it and you can&#8217;t also share because you know you&#8217;re one there are things that you&#8217;re not supposed to do you&#8217;re the one who has made the decision so you&#8217;re the one who&#8217;s supposed to hold the fort of strength right and that can weigh on you in a very different way have you like what&#8217;s your out from that have you created a peer circle you know how do you do that structurally\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">yeah so what, i&#8217;ve started doing uh you know when i kind of started realizing that so i i have two different set of um formula or two different set of formula maybe a more formal word but uh two different ways of doing it so one yes i do have you know a couple of people that i speak to and you know just uh just chitchat basically the second thing a little bit more formal that i&#8217;ve started doing is that i always have a periodical apart from my regular meetings and what i have a periodical once a or you know once in every one and a half month forever i have like a general all staff meeting and it&#8217;s a kind of formal meeting have it in the hallway where i just talk and let them ask question or talk uh and i just keep everything transparent very transparent this is what we&#8217;re struggling with this is what we have achieved this is our milestone goal.<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">this is what we&#8217;re what we&#8217;re doing right now uh by doing this what i try to do is just get on board we&#8217;re in the same boat i come either on this side or you guys come which we&#8217;re in the same boat so i kind of sometime try to take this heavy load off my shoulders like guys let&#8217;s share it it&#8217;s good for the team because the experience and they also feel that we are part of you know the important decisions and the responsibility the way it helps me is that i kind of share that button so i made it a point which you know the last one i had recently just a couple of weeks back and there is a new employee new team member you you welcome the new team member uh you talk about the stuff crack some jokes usually i start with the story anecdotes or some things just to you know break the ice and it has given me so everybody kind of feel uh like a team we&#8217;re together we know what&#8217;s happening so uh everybody&#8217;s on the same base so that really kind of helps i made it a point uh and i often say the guys were a team not a family and this kind of uh ticks off sometime uh you know within my business network it&#8217;s like what do you mean we&#8217;re not a family every big company you go is like we&#8217;re a family it&#8217;s like no we&#8217;re not a family we&#8217;re a team and i&#8217;ll tell you what&#8217;s the difference in a family if god forbid one of your family members something happens god forbid meets an accident broke leg or broke hand or or let&#8217;s say very weak in studies or couldn&#8217;t build a good carrier\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">let&#8217;s say example what do you do with that family member do you let that family member go no you still take care but what do you do in the in the company in in the corporate world any big company name covid hits 2000 people are out 5000 people are out 50 depending on the size of the company that&#8217;s not a family so if you were a family you wouldn&#8217;t have done that uh maybe i don&#8217;t know if a company that did that maybe there are i&#8217;m sure there are i would say we are a team we stand together we fight together i&#8217;m going to support you i need your support we&#8217;ll help each other but if you are not up for it if you think this is not your cup of tea if you are kind of pulling the team back then i have to let you go\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">because the team it&#8217;s not a family it is a team we have to win we have a mission we have goal we have objective uh we have things to achieve it&#8217;s a business at the end of the day so we all have to perform our best but if i identify within a team that there is this one person who is not up for the challenge for whatever reason you know the first thing yes we&#8217;ll definitely try everything possible to make sure that help her or him to improve to come out of that challenge coach teach whatever it is but if you still see it&#8217;s not happening i have to replace the person team member i have to bring in somebody sharp who can do like we do in the games like so in the games football team football team we say football team not football family a cricket team not a cricket family\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">because if you get injured or you&#8217;re not performing you get replaced immediately you know the the cards shown so that&#8217;s my philosophy and i always say guys we stand together i&#8217;m there to help you you&#8217;re there to help me we&#8217;re helping each other we are going to achieve the mission but it&#8217;s a team always remember it&#8217;s a team so stay sharp stay focused uh and let&#8217;s just do it we&#8217;ll be human enough for sure uh it&#8217;s not that you&#8217;re not performing you&#8217;re gonna get you out no we&#8217;ll not replace you but we&#8217;ll do everything possible uh but still if we find that you know you just don&#8217;t have it you you don&#8217;t want to do it for whatever reason then let&#8217;s say because i can&#8217;t really penalize the rest of the team and the company just because of one person so yeah that&#8217;s one philosophy that i strictly adhere to<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Kamran that&#8217;s amazing this was an absolutely enriching conversation um and i see you know while you said it situational leadership that&#8217;s that&#8217;s your that&#8217;s your way but i see that you&#8217;re you&#8217;re definitely leading from the front um\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Try to.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Congratulations on a on a great career trajectory\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thank you\u00a0<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Ashish Tulsian:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">You know so far and i wish you all the very very best for the future.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p><b>Kamran Khan:<\/b><\/p>\n<p><span style=\"font-weight: 400;\">Thanks for having me on this podcast love talking it&#8217;s kind of you know you know having those reflections and that little chat with yourself you know going down the memory lane so thoroughly enjoyed it thank you very much for having me.<\/span><\/p>\n<p>&nbsp;<\/p>\n<p>[\/et_pb_tab][\/et_pb_tabs][et_pb_code 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