Ashish Tulsian: 

Hi, welcome to Restrocast. Today my guest on the pod is Wing Lam, the owner of Wahoo’s Fish Tacos. Wing’s conversation was really interesting because I think running Wahoo’s Fish Tacos for last 36 years, Wing is somebody who thinks and lives marketing. I think, you know, in my conversation with him, I discovered probably the earliest example of what influencer marketing done right means. And down to this year, you know, for last 36 years, I think every layer that I peeled with him, you know, I found a new influencer marketing. I will not really call it a hack, but I will definitely call it like a well-crafted campaign around, you know, influencers and people who can bring a lot of credibility and eyeballs to the brand. I think the success and falling of Wahoo’s and Wing’s, work pivots around the fact that they care for their customers, they care for the food that they make, the freshness, the ingredients, but on top of it, it’s definitely a genius marketing, brand positioning, and the basic thought process of how Wing thinks about location of their restaurants. It’s not about somebody putting a restaurant somewhere and then figuring out how to bring people to it. It’s somebody who first looks at what kind of people are coming at a spot and then puts a restaurant there. This conversation is definitely a must listen for every aspiring or existing restauranteur. Do watch. Welcome to Restrocast. Wing, welcome to Restrocast.

 

Wing Lam:

Thanks for having me.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Thank you for agreeing to do this.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah, it’s fun to be in Vegas.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

You know, our research told us that you are called the ultimate wingman restauranteur. I really want to know a lot more about that, but we’ll start from where it all started. How were the early years and how did you fall into the restaurant space?

 

Wing Lam:

The story really starts back in Brazil. So luckily for me, my parents always immigrated to a place that was pretty welcoming to all of us. So China to Japan, all the way to Brazil. I opened one of the first Chinese restaurants in South America in the early fifties. And then all of us were born and raised in Brazil in the sixties and had a great run as a kid. You know having the only child… 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

How come Brazil?

 

Wing Lam:

Because after World War II, if you’re Asian, remember, we kind of all look alike. After what happened in Pearl Harbor, probably not the best thing to come to America at the time. The climate wasn’t as friendly. So you saw a lot of Asians in Peru, Argentina, Brazil, basically starting over again, right? Because the opportunities were much, much better because, you know, everything in Asia, you know, in Europe as well, because, you know, what happened in World War II. So everybody came. So I would say the Europeans mostly came to America. A good number of Germans and whatever ended up in Brazil as well. So there we are. We know all of us are down there. And my dad, we ran the only Chinese restaurant in the little town we grew up in. But somewhere in the mid-sixties, my dad got the bug to say, hey, there might be a better opportunity in America. So he ventured first in the late sixties and, you know, worked for a couple of other friends and eventually found a restaurant in Newport Beach on an island of all places, which there aren’t that many, you know, islands. And this one happened to be Balboa Island. And in the early seventies opened and it was just moseying along. The rest of us are all in Brazil having a great time. And then I call it those moments that change your life, right? There was a publicist in Orange County at the time in Newport Beach named Gloria Zigner, who had one client, right? 

One big one. And it was Pilar Wayne, which was John Wayne’s wife. So, you know, Jewish people like Chinese food, especially, you know, for celebrations and whatnot. Their restaurant was just kind of doing okay. You know, it wasn’t very busy. So she came in one day and asked, hey, do you mind if we close it down, host a private birthday party for my husband? My dad goes, of course. I mean, it’d be better than what we’re doing, right? And then she went to Pilar and said, hey, would you mind asking your husband to stop by and wish my husband happy birthday? That’s the real story. The story that came after was that my dad hosted a birthday party for John Wayne because the picture of John Wayne and my dad went up on the wall and the restaurant literally overnight went from 20% occupancy to an hour and a half wait to get in. 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Woww

 

Wing Lam:

They’ve changed the history of our family because then my dad said, hey, mom, can you bring the kids to America? Because we need some free labor.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Of course. 

 

Wing Lam:

That could work in the restaurant. So we uprooted in 1975. We all came up here and basically without speaking a word of English, here we are in Newport Beach, which at the time had maybe a handful of Chinese families, right? If any. And here we are. And we went to work almost every day after school. And that was our crash course. And over time, you know, I kind of learned English, but I remember the first time a customer asked me for a fork. I literally ran back to the kitchen. What is a fork? You know, the thing you eat with it. Aha. Got it. I came back with a fork. Then it was a spoon and it was a knife. I mean, that’s literally how bad my English was because I didn’t speak any of it. 

Ashish Tulsian:

And what other languages were you speaking then? Portuguese, of course. 

 

Wing Lam:

Portuguese was my native and then a little bit of Chinese with my parents. But while I was going to school, I learned Spanish because it was really easy because if you know one of the romance languages, it’s really easy to learn the other ones. So I immediately was fluent in Spanish within six months, which helped me talk to the dishwasher at the restaurant and everybody else. But it was really difficult to communicate with my friends at school because I didn’t speak any English. So that was the I call it the moment. And basically through the 70s and 80s, that’s what we did. We always helped out in my dad’s restaurant. Eventually, he opened a more locations.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

What is it called?

 

Wing Lam:

The original was called the Shanghai Pine Garden, which is still open on Balboa Island after over 55 years now.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Wow. Wow.

 

Wing Lam:

So my dad doesn’t operate it anymore. Both my mom and dad literally live about two blocks away. And that’s basically, you know, where we learn all of our plus the time we spend in Brazil.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

That’s a legendary story. I mean, the layers of it are just amazing. I mean, you’re basically talking about engulfing the history from 1950 to 2024.

 

Wing Lam:

Yes, yes. So you’re looking at about 74 years. So my parents, they’re in their 90s. Right. So we went to school, did our little, you know, paid our dues, learned English. And then he said, hey, I don’t want you guys to work with your hands. I want you guys to work with your mind because they never went to school. They basically dropped out after elementary school. So it was a privilege for all of us kids, all five of us to go to college. So I already had an attorney brother. I already had another brother going to med school. So the optional thing for me as a, you know, a notable career, right, was to become an engineer. Well, that didn’t work out very well because I should have gone to my first choice school, which would have been San Jose State, a much more engineering friendly school. Instead, I went to San Diego State. And as we know, it is probably one of the biggest party schools in the Western United States. So it made it really, really difficult for me to get to class because I was always getting sidetracked by one of my friends to say, hey, you know, there’s a party, there’s something going on, you know, there’s girls, you know, there’s stuff. And I found myself really having a hard time getting to the engineering school.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Were you, huh?

 

Wing Lam:

What was that? 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Were you?

 

Wing Lam:

I did. So eventually when you get that letter that you’re on academic probation, because my grades were terrible because I was never in school. I said, you know what? I like where I’m at. I don’t really want to go home. And I had joined a fraternity at the time as well. I said, you know what? I found out that literally 99% of all my classmates in a fraternity were all in the business school. So that’s when I said, you know what? Maybe I’m going to join the business school. And, you know, within it, I found the finance major, which again, I’m good with numbers. So I’m like, this is good. You know, it’s close enough to engineering. I’m still doing numbers, right? But it’s not as difficult as calculus and chemistry and physics, you know? So it worked out really well. It did take me five years because I basically lost my first year in school. And upon graduation, I did make my parents very proud because my first job out of college, I went to work for Rockwell International on the space shuttle program. So that worked out really, really nicely, you know, but I was on the business side of it. But the whole idea that I got to go to LA every day from Orange County and I got to wear a suit, you know, wingtips, the whole nine yards, right? I fit in the American dream, you know?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

And also, I mean, impressing Asian parents comes with its own rule book, right?

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah. And it was fun for a while. But then, you know, as we say, I’m not sure we call it corporate America wasn’t really ready for us, right? Because you got a little bit of ethnicity, the good old boys network, you know, whatever you want to call it, the glass ceiling. So if you’re a female or, you know, any Asian descendant, you know, in the 80s, you know, upward mobility wasn’t exactly as easy as possible. So I hung out for a little bit. Then luckily for me, another friend of mine from high school that was working at Rockwell called me and we went to work for another aerospace think tank. And at that moment, things were really good because at least they let me do what I wanted to do. You know, I could build contracts. I could propose. I could do all the things and actually use my finance degree. So that lasted a while. And when the coolest thing is, which I have the claim to fame is one of the contracts that I help us, you know, get for our company basically became today as we know the internet, because at the time it was a contract for real time communications for the Air Force. So basically, is everybody on the same page before we launched the missile? So it was real time communication.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Over the intranet maybe in those days? 

 

Wing Lam:

There wasn’t the internet yet, but how do we make sure that we’re all on the same page? Are we all good to go or not good to go? So they created a security network for communication and the startup company that we use was Sun Microsystems. They were a two million dollar startup. So we went up against the IBMs and all the big boys and we said we have the best mousetrap on how to communicate in real time. And that’s the internet. So I left. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

What year was that?

 

Wing Lam:

This is 1986.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Wow

 

Wing Lam:

86, 87. And then literally right at that moment, there was an opportunity for me to move up. But then as we call it, politics came into play again. And I said, you know what, I’m going to go try to do something that I know how to do, which is basically something that I love doing, which is hospitality. And my kid brother, Ed, was getting ready to get out of school anyway. And I said, Ed, you know, nothing against corporate America, but I’m not sure they’re ready for us yet.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Right.

 

Wing Lam:

There’s still a lot of old school, a lot of tradition. And Ed said, yeah, maybe what we’re going to do is, hey, we like to surf, but we’re not really good at surfing. There’s a difference between liking and being a professional. Right. So a lot of people play basketball. Very few play in the NBA. So we in the Orange County area was the Mecca for action sports, surfers, skateboarders and BMX, whatever. So I said, hey, maybe we can do something around that. And right around the time we found a location in Costa Mesa because I was doing some work with some other friends and it was a business for sales, an old Italian restaurant. I said, what a perfect location, because within walking distance or five minutes, we’re within seven of the largest surf brands in America. And as we say, I joke about it, if you build it, they’ll come, but you got to build them close enough where they can come. And the beach was really about maybe two miles away.

 

So I said, you know, this is a pretty good spot. And if we succeed, we’ll have everybody here from the industry. And remember, I had this old John Wayne thing that if I want to cater to surfers, if I can get maybe one popular surfer, maybe the rest will follow. So that was our whole strategy. Right. And luckily for us within, I call it eight months of opening the store. So for the first few months, kind of like struggling a little bit, it wasn’t that busy. But by the time the first summer came and we had then what we now know as the U.S. Open of surfing, then it was the OP Pro. All the surfers came into town.

And by that time, we’ve kind of had partnerships with all the big brands. And I said, hey, maybe they’ll bring some of these surfers in. And they did. So when all the kids goes, oh, my God, we’re not just talking about a world class surfer. We’re talking about a world champion. So imagine what that does for your business, because all the kids go, you got to go there because the real pros come. So the first summer, we literally had four former world surfing champions in the restaurant at one time.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Wow. You’ve been using influencer marketing since then.

 

Wing Lam:

That’s it. It works. Right. So before there was social media, we had to do it the traditional way. We had to get them literally in the store. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

And that restaurant was the original was

 

Wing Lam:

1988 in Costa Mesa.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Yeah, that’s the first one.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah, the first one. So then about every year, we’d open a store and we slowly grew. And then you talk about a moment in time that really changes. Again, we had, I call it a small John Wayne moment through those first 13 years. And in the year 2000, this is I call the magical moment where it really turned and shifted. There was an opportunity for us to be in a national commercial. Merrill Lynch sent a memo out to all their brokers across the United States. They say, hey, do you have a small business client that would make an interesting American dream story? We didn’t know that was the mission. We just said interesting business. So we sent in our little bio photos and all that. And about 600 and some companies applied for it. And it got down to about 30. And then they called us. And my kid brother, Ed, was on the phone. And they’re like, so you make tacos. What’s the big deal? There’s a million taco shops in America. So what’s so different, impressive about what you guys do? And my brother basically said, hey, where else in the world can a Chinese guy sell Mexican food? It’s the American dream. And they’re like, what? And I go, look at the pictures we sent you. There’s three Asian kids.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Oh. 

 

Wing Lam:

And they had that aha moment. It was, oh, my God, what a campaign, the American dream. So a few months later, they filmed us. And we ended up spending a year plus on television and newspapers, magazines talking about the American dream. So our business was already doing well, but it basically tripled our bottom line.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

That is so cool. 

 

Wing Lam:

So imagine any business having a $60 million marketing campaign behind it.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

How many stores were you by then? How many locations?

 

Wing Lam:

We were at 13 stores at that time, 13 years, 13 stores. And then basically we started picking up the pace. So then we were starting two or three a year thereafter. And in opening franchise, because our phone line were going off the hook. But we weren’t really in the franchise world. We wanted to be more like, hey, we want to have a place to hang out. And the main reason, again, this is part of the good and the bad is in all the proteins that you can play with, fish is not one that you can easily teach somebody how to do. Chicken, steak, pork, relatively speaking, two minutes, three minutes, it’s easy to do. Fish, depending on the thickness of it, it requires a little bit more eyeball and a little more training. That’s just time to flip it. It’s not just clock and go. So you can overcook it really easily.

You can undercook it really easily as well. So it became a little bit more difficult, but I said, well, that’s our signature. Because as we all know, I mean, I wanted to have this fun place, but the backbone really wanted to be healthy because I wanted to live as long as my parents did. So I would say, we’ve got to eat something healthy, not fried and all this stuff. So I’m like, it’s a treat to eat fried foods. It’s not necessarily good for you to eat it every day. So there’s a lot of things that are good treats, but not a part of your regimen, especially if you’re trying to compete, trying to be like an instructor, anybody that works out a lot, you want to be active. So you don’t want to do things that counter the productivity, right? Because you’re lifting a lot of weight and then all of a sudden you’re going to eat a six pack, drink a six pack of beer and eat a dozen donuts. It’s not necessarily the best thing for you. So that’s kind of like the yin and the yang. We wanted to have something fun, but at the same time, be good for you.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

That is amazing. And hacking that marketing campaign on national television is a big one. All these locations that you are opening are owned by you or is it like a franchising model?

 

Wing Lam:

We have about 50-50. So like the locations here in Vegas, there’s six of them. Our partner here, Matt, runs them. In Colorado, another friend runs them. So there’s basically in the country now, about five individuals that run about 25 locations. So very few…

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

And that happened post 2000?

 

Wing Lam:

No, we started in Colorado in the mid nineties because a friend of mine moved from California to Colorado. And perfect timing because Lodo downtown, Denver was redeveloping, lower downtown they call it. So the timing was perfect. He knew real estate and it was perfect timing because he had this whole movement of Californians to Colorado. So he became basically a real estate developer slash restaurant operator. And we’ve done really well there. I mean, it’s over 25 years in Colorado.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

That’s really interesting. So post 2000, I’m just wondering that you were already franchising or you already had a taste of having a partner running your show. I’m sure you might’ve been flooded with all kinds of franchising inquiries and also companies that may want your brand to franchise them across the country. I’m 101% sure that you did not give in to the temptation. Otherwise, it would have been probably, I don’t know, 500 stores or a thousand stores or a thousand store disaster. I don’t know which one. What happened here? How did you? Why and why not?

 

Wing Lam:

Because in California, for instance, I mean, comparing the burger guys, most of them I think started in California except for a handful. And the funny part is the smallest player in that group is the one that everybody talks about. So do I want to be the one that everybody loves or do I want to be the biggest? You see what I’m saying? And because sometimes being the biggest, yes, you have the biggest pocketbook, but behind your back, what are people really saying? And I hear comments all the time, but all the different chains like, oh my God, how can you feed American people that food? And first of all, nobody’s forcing you to go there. I’d say the big boys, you go there more of a convenience thing than anything else. Because it’s convenient, they’re everywhere, it’s quick and that’s why it’s called quick service. So the one guy in my hometown that it doesn’t have nearly as many units, people crave it. So looking at both models goes, do I want to be the biggest or do I want to be the one people crave?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

You know, there’s this book called Small Giants. Have you read the book? Do you know about the book?

 

Wing Lam:

I know about the book, yeah. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

You know what’s the byline of the book? It says, small giants, businesses who decided to be great and not big. It basically talks about literally what you just said. Your business is a perfect candidate to be, if ever there’s going to be a part two of that book, your story needs to be told there because that book exactly talks about that. Businesses which compounded to be bigger, but they set out to be great.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah. And to me, and again, accidentally, purposeful, a combination of both, is once you get to a certain level, i.e. five stores, it’s so much easier to start commissaries, so much easier to do a lot of central things. But today, I mean, which I think is very clever, the word stabilizer. Stabilizers, they want to stabilize the food to transport from point A to point B, otherwise known as preservatives. And again, you look at America in general, it’s a great country, great opportunities, but when you start looking at all the different diseases that exist here, they don’t exist in other countries, is again, what we all say, we are what we eat. So a huge part of it is, should you be eating all these chemicals?

And it starts literally at the farming side, because we, hey, the cow wants to get bigger, quicker, so how do we get them bigger? So all that, eventually, we pay the price. We don’t pay it while we’re young, but as soon as you get into your 60s and 70s, all of a sudden, I can’t quite move, I can’t do all this. You wonder why. So I always thought, you know what, I’d like to be active, doing my surfing, my snowboarding, golfing, until I can’t do it anymore. But I just don’t want to show up to a golf course and not be able to play golf. So the whole lifestyle, the quality of life to me was very important. And you can’t have both, I don’t think. Because if it’s not meant to be in your food, why should you eat it? And when you look at all these things that stabilize food in general to make a shelf stable, preserve it, all these things to transport it, is that something you should be eating? I’m not sure.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

You know, when you started your first show with your brother, and you were, of course, you’re trying to take over and turn around this location, which is technically not doing well for the previous one. What kind of role did you assume? Is it, you know, from a surfer, golfer, the party guy and the numbers guy? 

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

What, who are you as a restauranteur?

 

Wing Lam:

Because at the beginning, I was the oldest, right? And I was already married with a kid. I needed to actually get paid. So I literally did everything humanly possible that needed to be done. I was the cashier, I was the server, I was the busboy, I was the cook, I did everything, because we couldn’t really afford to have a lot of labor at the very beginning. So my kid brothers would fill in, and eventually they started, you know, more and more. As it got busier, they got more full time, right? But I was the first one that really just needed a paycheck. But once we kind of said, hey, we’re busier now, we’ve, you know, like I said, the first day, we might have done $300 in business.

And we’re like, oh my God, this is so busy. $300 now is I could do it in a half hour, right? So it’s all relative. So I basically, whatever needs to be done. And one of the things that I became used to is speaking, you know, going out and networking, because I was just, you know, Asians by nature, we’re more quiet, we’re more in the background, we don’t really want to be on stage, we don’t want to be anywhere where the limelight. So we are, but I’ve been, you know, me being the oldest, and me being at the front of the restaurant, I inherited these positions. So I became the face of the company, not by choice, it was more by default and necessity, you know. So we joke about it today, because it’s been 35 years, but people still like, well, why weren’t your brothers doing it? Because nobody really wanted to do it. But I was kind of like, I had to do it. I didn’t really have a choice. They had a choice. They were like, yeah, that we can do it. You know, because then it was like, oh, you deal with this guy, you deal with that. And I’m like, okay, fine, I’ll deal with it. But along with dealing with all of the interviews, newspaper, people go, oh, you’re the Wahoos guy. And I’m like, well, I am, you know, but there’s three of us. But in, you know, majority of the time, they know me, because I’m out and about doing all the events.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

What part of restauranting you, you know, really realized early that hate may be a strong word, but then, like, you figured that, you know what, I don’t want to be this part of restauranting. Otherwise, I’ll quit.

 

Wing Lam:

There wasn’t so much that I hated, but I figured out early on, unlike when you have a regular job, that no matter what you do, there’s a paycheck on Friday. I realized by being an owner now, that if I didn’t figure out how to get people in the door, there might not be a paycheck on Friday. So once I figured that out, it would keep me up, because I’m like, oh, my God, at $300 a day, come Friday, we might only be able to pay our vendors, but not our employees. So I started figuring out, how do I get people in my doors? And so I often now spend a lot of time telling all the new entrepreneurs, one, you got to have something that’s different. Two, you got to figure out how to get people to buy it, because no matter how good you are, if you can’t get people to buy it, it really doesn’t matter. So restaurants don’t fail because they make bad food, they fail because they can’t get people in the door.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Whoa, yeah, that’s a big, yeah, that’s so simply said, but that’s so true.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah, because so to me, having a finance degree was counting the money that I already made, isn’t going to make it any bigger. Getting people in the door will make that number bigger. So I just, and I only took one marketing class in college, but now I spend every waking moment, how do I get word out in the street? Because yes, there’s a whole bunch of us making tacos here on the west side of Costa Mesa. How do I get all those people to come here and not go to the other places? So I would just find all the different gimmicks, strategies, campaigns, how to get them in here.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Tell me, like give me some crazy ones.

 

Wing Lam:

Well, one of the fun things I always say, like going back to the John Wayne thing is like, if I can find those kids, right? The influencers we call them today. So the ads that we ran forever in print until a few years back, because all the magazines are gone now is we would find the up and coming surfers, snowboarders, wherever they were. And because I had relations with the brands already, I says, we’re going to have this feature ad called Hot Grom’s Up and Coming Kids. And that’s what we’re going to feature. And not only are we going to talk about him, never in the ad was there a word about what he liked about us. It was about him, his stats and his sponsors. It was about the kid. And fast forward today, when I went to the emergency room the other day to take my mom out for a little cut, the doctor was a kid that I knew when he was 14 years old. Musicians that are touring the world today, one of them, Donovan Frankenreiter. I’ve known him since he was 14 years old. So all these kids either became really big snowboarders, surfers, whatever, Sean White, all these kids that we had that when they’re kids, we figure, hey, we’re going to bet on these kids that one of them needs to make it. 99% of it, that was the highlight of their career. When they got on that podium as an amateur, that was it. They went on to college, whatever else they did after that. But the ones that made it to the music world, to the professional world, they’ve never forgotten us. So I figure that was the original way to influence. Because if that little kid is good enough to eat at my place, maybe if you snowboard, you maybe should eat at our place.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

I mean, this is so amazing, because one of the, I think, biggest marketing lessons that I learned from a friend of mine who led viral marketing at one of the large online travel operator company in India, is exactly this. Where he actually probably in his career produced the most amount of viral videos, where his poorest performing video got two million views in no time. And one day I asked him, how are you able to do that, literally on a shoestring budget? Like, his costliest production was $400. And he actually told me what he just said. He said, well, brands start hooting their own trumpet, nobody cares. He said, in my videos, I’m just talking about people and their life, and that’s what they’re interested in. And that’s what makes them share it. 

 

Wing Lam: 

Yeah. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

He said virality is really about share. So he told me, he said Ashish, the most important button on Facebook in those days, he said, is not like or comment, it’s share. He said if you can hack share, you know, your video is viral.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

If you are on like and comment, God help you. You know, it’s good for a family, you know, but within your family, I scratch your back, you scratch mine. But you know, I actually started looking at it from that day, you know, in my own context, it’s, it’s extremely difficult to figure out. Virality may be a big word, but it’s really difficult to figure out marketing.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

What you’re saying is like, it just, you know, it just hits so well.

 

Wing Lam:

The word today they use is user-generated content. To me, it’s like, hey, stop talking about yourself. Talk about the people that enjoy your product. Talk to people that enjoy your brand. People enjoy your service. Whatever you’re selling, stop selling and share the stories about people that enjoy it. It’s like what we talk about, networking, you know, referrals, all these things. It only happens when it’s genuine, people enjoy the experience that they had, the product. People tell everybody. It’s either the best or the worst, right? And there’s nothing, really no middle ground because if they don’t love it or hate it, they just don’t talk about it. So if you have a kid or an ambassador that enjoys your product, it will, everybody will see through it and you can’t pay it. But a lot of brands, you know, that’s what they’re forced to do. They’re paying. I’m like, it’s not genuine because we as consumer, we all know this. Are you kidding me? That’s totally product endorsement, right? So I don’t care how clever your campaign is.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Yeah.

 

Wing Lam:

I think the consumer is way smarter than that. So you literally have to use organic, like a local person because you went to the high school with that person. You go to church with that person. You believe in them because you see them and they don’t have to have 10 million followers. They just have to influence your ability to buy or not. You know, so these numbers are out there and I’m like, you know, and be able to tell people, Hey, I have most of these friends, you know, from all 35 years because I never paid any of the athletes because I’m there at the event. They’re eating my food and you either like it or you don’t. I’m okay with either one. You know, nobody loves or hates, but most of them end up liking because it fulfills that part of the activity because you can’t surf for 10 hours and not eat. You can’t snowboard for 10 hours. So at some part you’re going to eat. And if I’m there complimenting that experience, I’m going to be the brand that you always go home. Even when I’m not at a competition, I should probably go to Wahoos because maybe the next competition they’ll be there again.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

So you are the genius marketer part of the restaurant that’s established, but you know, restaurant industry is crazy. And, you know, thankfully, you know, you were definitely the cheap labor for your dad transported from Brazil early on, right? But, you know, how’s the family, you know, how did your family took it and how does that work? Given, you know, my understanding is the restaurant world is crazy because people socialize at your restaurant. And that basically means that most of the restauranters life, social life goes for a toss.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

How’s been the life for you?

 

Wing Lam:

It’s always a constant battle between the two, right? Because the family life, luckily for on one side, me and Mingo and Ed, the three of us that run the company, we relatively speaking, we get along really well. I mean, we try to keep work to work. And then when we’re a family, we don’t really talk about work. Right. So that’s a good line to, you know, don’t bring the work home. Right. But the issue is, is most of my friends tend to be related to my business because I mean, there’s only so many hours in a day. So my beer guys, you know, some of my soft drinkers, we’re all friends because if I can’t hang out with you, then I shouldn’t really be doing business with you anyway. So but it creates a dilemma though, because you find out in most businesses, right? Somebody says, oh my God, you know, you need a new attorney. He goes, no, I went to college with my attorney. So I don’t care how good or bad he really is. We’ve been friends for 10, 20, 30 years. Right. 

So our job is to create those environments because when something does happen, like supply chain issues, or if you’re friends with your vendors, they’ll find a way to get that product to you, whatever the service may be. And I tell that to everybody goes, even though you’re new, somebody may, may already have that business, or somebody is trying to get your business. So you constantly not only have to provide the product, deliver the goods, but you have to have a relation with your client or your vendor, because that ultimately is the long lasting part of what we do. You know, so being in this restaurant for 35 years, it’s always, hey, I tell the young guys goes, hey, you need to do something different. But what are you doing? That’s going to be better than what I’m already doing.

Right. So if you can’t change, why am I going to do anything with you? And this is kind of like this whole world now that everything’s so technology based is like, hey, yes, I can replace people with that. But how are you going to make it better? Right. It’s not just about cost, because everybody goes, well, you know, I can make it cheaper. Well, yeah, today you might make it cheaper. But guess what? Tomorrow, somebody else is gonna be cheaper than you. So it’s not only about the cost. It’s about the relationship and the service. So it’s a lot of things that come into play. But more important at the end of the day, if we don’t like each other, like, hey, why are we here?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Tell me a little bit about your family. Tell me tell me something like what’s what’s what’s that? Your wife, kids?

 

Wing Lam:

My wife, I have two amazing kids. You know, my brothers, we all have kids. So the second generation, good and bad. Most of them have worked in the business, our nieces, nephews and kids, but none of them necessarily want to be in it because they realize how much work it is. You know, it’s really hard. Luckily for me, my eight year old now loves when I pick him up in one of our branded vehicles. So given the choice between driving your mom’s car, my car, hands down, you know, he wants to drive in the taco truck, whatever. So it is fun. So I enjoy it that he’s able to tell all his friends that I own Wahoos, you know, and so with all my nieces and nephews. So it’s an amazing opportunity. So the balance is always there. You know, so I always tell my wife, honey, if I didn’t have Wahoos, probably wouldn’t be able to get the concert tickets we have. Right. So there’s a lot of that the give and take. So, yes, we may not have as much privacy because when you’re out and about, you’re going to run into customers and they always love to go.

Oh, my God, I love your restaurant, which is way better than I hate your restaurant. But at the same time, there are days that you just want to be out and just be anonymous. Right. And those days are far and few in between, because even when we travel abroad, somebody goes, oh, my God, you’re the guy from Wahoos. I’m like, oh, my God, we’re in wherever. Right. And it is fun, you know, and I’m sure like any other professional athlete or celebrity, it’s fun to be acknowledged for your great job that you’ve done. Right. So I appreciate it. So I always, you know, strangers or not, I’m very grateful whenever I see a customer or a friend that say, hey, I went to high school with you, I went to college with you. I’ve been a customer for a number of years. So I love that. Yes, the thank you. You know, I appreciate the good words and the kind words, you know. But yeah, loving family right now. You know, my wife and I get along great. And it’s hey, we just got to keep the ball moving. Right.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Is she like, what is she?

 

Wing Lam:

My wife, Kelly, is into wellness. So when I met her, she was in construction, which wasn’t really happy about. I tell her, if you don’t like what you’re doing, what would you really enjoy doing? But when she found out that, you know, she really enjoyed yoga. But I hate to tell people, unless you own the yoga studio, you don’t make a lot of money, just like any other business. You may like to cook, but unless you own the restaurant, you may not make as much as the owner. Right. So when she became certified yoga instructor and she got her first paycheck, she was like, oh, my God, it’s so little. Well, you should think about doing something else. So she started a wellness company that basically uses insurance dollars that is available to everybody. And so that the services that you as a, you know, employee of a company get, you don’t have to pay for because whether it’s a yoga class, eating, you know, happy hour or some mental, you know, whatever it is, it’s paid by insurance company. So she’s been having a lot more fun. It’s still not a ton of money, but she’s having a much more, you know, fun time doing that than she did before.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Do you think it’s a threat to, you know, restauranting the fact that you’re saying that the next generation really looks at it as, oh, this is too much work. Yeah, probably not a not a not a great idea. And I can see that not only in this, like second and third generation restauranters, possible restauranters of current times, I can also see that in the service staff, you know, people who are getting, you know, not getting into the industry. Where are you? Where do you think this is going?

 

Wing Lam:

Well, I think the main issue is not only is it the hard work that they can see, it’s also this generation is used to not doing this. They’re used to doing this. So the idea that they have to deal with an angry customer in face to face, scares the daylights out of them. And I think there’s a great quote that I think Mike Tyson uses it on social media. They’re so easy to criticize because you can’t punch him in the face if you do that in real life, right? Because they would never dare to say that if there was a possibility that they would literally get knocked out. But via this all day long, I’m going to complain, tell you how an idiot you are that I’m going to go off on you because you can’t touch me. But you would never dare to do that in real life. So you find a lot of these delivery companies, a lot of things that you don’t have to deal with interface with the consumer. So you find warehouse jobs, a lot of things that you can just hide behind an office. And as long as you don’t have to deal with it. But the problem with that is that I’m seeing is a lot of the kids, when they really want to move upwards, the one skill that they lack is their social skill, because they don’t know how to deal with people that are angry. They don’t know how to deal with people that are mean. More important, they don’t know how to deal with people that don’t agree with them.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Yeah. Because operating in conflict or agreeing to disagree is not really a…

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah. So what they see on social media is, I hate you or I like you. That’s it. I don’t know. There is that middle ground that you need to get along. Because not everyone’s going to be on the same page, right? And that’s the major skill that I see a lot of this next generation. I think especially people that are maybe, I would say mid-30s and younger, they’re not used to it. Some, you know, because of wherever they went to school or…

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Yeah, people who necessarily like last 20 years had internet.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Who grew up on internet.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah. But I see that as, I mean, because you can tell, because you’re going to get customers that literally come into my store, they’re ordering through the app because they’re maybe afraid to talk to my cashier, and they’re paying sometimes 30 to 50 percent more than they would if they would have came into the store. And then on top of it, they sit down and eat.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

And I’m like… Do you think that’s the reason why self-ordering kiosks and, you know, mobile ordering and this QR code ordering is picking up?

 

Wing Lam:

Yes. Really? It’s just that people, it’s just so much easier to go, yes, no, yes, no, than, oh, what would you like? The whole idea that they have to talk to somebody. Because how often have we seen the kids, whether they’re eight years old, 15, or 20 or 30, there’ll be four or five of them at a social gathering, and they’re all on their phones. And I’m like, why are you even getting together? You could have just all stayed home and done the same thing. But here you are at a party, a restaurant, and you’re sitting around all doing the same thing again. I’m like, what is going on with you?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

That’s so amazing. I never thought that, yeah, I mean, somebody like me, you know, I run a restaurant technology company, but somebody like me is absolutely anti-technology if you go to a restaurant with me.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

I’ll be the first one to ask the server, do you have a physical menu? I don’t want that digital menu. Just for the life of it, I want to feel that menu.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

And then I, a part of my experience is to chat with the server.

 

Wing Lam:

What do you recommend?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Which, by the way, nowadays, I find funny that servers are also not interested to talk, right? It’s confusing. They’re like, well, look at the menu.

 

Wing Lam:

And I’m like, what do you recommend? Do you like the this or that?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Everything is good here.

 

Wing Lam:

Everything is good? No, come on. Do you like the chicken better? So, there’s something missing. So, that’s why sometimes when you go to an old-school diner, somebody that’s been around for a long time, right? You appreciate the friendliness, the eagerness, everything about what they do, because it’s human, right? So, that’s the piece, you know? So, technology, yes, would I rather hit a few buttons than have a server that has no personality? Yeah, but much easier, right? So, I think airports is the first place, because airports in general are very non-humanized, because, I mean, pre-20 years ago, pre-internet, you might have had, what, 50 agents to one kiosk? I think today it’s like 90% kiosk in one agent kind of a thing, right? Because it’s much quicker. We just know where we’re gonna go, and we don’t need to deal with somebody, right? Because the possibility that they might have had a bad day could ruin our day too, right?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

I think airports I understand as well, because airports by design are supposed to be efficiency machines. 

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah.. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

You’re not going there for gourmet experience. 

 

Wing Lam:

Exactly. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

You’re not, in fact, going there for an experience. You’re just very transactional, you want your food, you maybe want to catch the next flight, coming out, and you’re right. I mean, and I also think that, you know, I travel a lot, and across the world I can tell you that, you know, whenever I have had any bad experience in any country, it’s mostly at the airport, right? And I empathize, you know, with them, because I understand that, you know, probably this person is dealing with so many nationalities, and so many random people from all different moods, and bad travel, and all, but their general response is hostile. The general response is push away.

 

Wing Lam:

Exactly, because the thing is, we all know traveling is, in general, is not very enjoyable, unless you’re flying first class, you know, your own private cabin, but the majority of people, which is like 90% of people, don’t want to deal with it, and the flights delay, this, this, this, you just have to get charged for your luggage, whatever you just had to do that you weren’t anticipating, it just puts you in that space already. So guess who gets the brunt of it? That server that serves you next. She’s just gonna get it all. Whether, you know, whatever delay was, because you’re stuck now for two more hours, you know, you don’t really want to have that drink, but you’re stuck there, so you’re gonna have a drink, and if that waitress or waiter isn’t 110% in their best behavior, they’re just gonna get an earful, and no matter what they do, you’re still gonna go and yell, complain about what they just did, which is, to me, it’s like a really sad situation, right? So you take that out, now you go to a regular restaurant, and even if you had a great day, yes, you’re not gonna take it out, but for some reason, whoever is there, by nature and definition, two things that drive me crazy, the customer’s always right, not always the case, and two, yes, they’re servers, but they’re not there to kiss your behind. I hate to say it, right?

They’re there to bring you the food, take your order, and all that, but they’re still humans, right? So when you have this little, you know, dictatorship relationship, the customer to their server, it’s just like, the new generation, I don’t even want to be there, where the old generation is like, I’m gonna turn it around, and I’m gonna overkill you with kindness, and I’m gonna give this your best experience ever. So that’s our mindset of the old school. The new school is like, you had a bad day, I don’t even want to talk to you, and I didn’t want to be here in the first place, but I couldn’t get a job in the accounting department or whatever company, so I’m stuck here, I’m an aspiring actor, whatever it is, I’m stuck here, you know, and this is only a short period of my life, and I hate it, da-da-da, so I don’t want to listen to you, and I don’t care.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

You’ve been a restaurateur, I mean, you’ve been a restaurateur long enough, and a successful one, and a peaceful one, as I can, you know, perceive from this conversation. What’s your challenge today?

 

Wing Lam:

The big challenge today is that we were talking about is, in the last year and a half, with rising food costs at over 50%, labor at over 50%, right? How do you translate that? Because for some reason, you can go to a supermarket, and you don’t think twice about, oh, it’s more expensive, you pay, other people buy it, but when you come to a restaurant, you raise it by 5%, and you’re like, oh my god, how dare you charge me, you know, 25 more cents for that taco. It is like this catastrophe that just happened, and you’re sitting there going, oh my god, have you gone to the supermarket lately? But for some reason, it’s your choice to be in the supermarket, so is your choice to be at a restaurant. So the angry consumer is like, oh my god, right? And so you have this, so we’re trying to find ways to, you know, hey, how do we catch up to the labor and the food costs? So technology is one answer, and then their relationship is the other. So on the bad side, how do we streamline some of the things, get a better price for, you know, and not necessarily trading down, that’s never the answer, because consumers will know immediately that the portions are smaller, or the product is inferior, so that’s not the answer. The real answer is you’ve got to be better at it, so that’s where technology comes in, both in the front and the back of the house, because if you can eliminate a couple positions or make it more efficient, and whatever that means, you’re gonna be able to get back to where you need to be. So right now, across, you know, the nation, everybody’s having the same issue, is how do we get to where we were pre-pandemic?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

What’s your challenge, personally, as a restauranteur? This challenge is the business, but what do you, is it, I mean, my question is more about that after four years in the business, and running it successfully, does it get boring?

 

Wing Lam:

The big thing for us is pre-pandemic, we literally had five days a week worth of business. Post-pandemic, best case scenario, you have people back to their offices for three days, so three out of five, that means 40% down. So as a marketing person, how do you market to 40% of people that are not in their offices? Hasn’t delivery made up for that? Delivery doesn’t make up for that, because in the delivery world, as we know it, very few takeout orders include beverages, and the main part of the restaurant’s profit margin is in the beverage consumption, whether it’s a soft drink or an alcoholic, that’s where the margins really exist, not in the food side of it, because the food, with existing labor and food costs, it’s almost non-existent. So if you, if we went to an all delivery system every day, we literally have to raise the prices by 50% to get back to the margins we were pre-pandemic, and which is, nobody’s gonna buy it at that level, because now we’re literally pricing ourselves like full service. So that’s a dilemma, right? It’s like, how do you provide that experience and get people to pay for it? And it’s impossible at the moment, and when food takes out, I hate to tell you, when it sits in that little hot container box, it keeps cooking. So that vegetable that was nice and al dente when you had it at the restaurant, it’s nice and mushy by the time you get it home. That pizza that was nice and crispy when you had it, it’s nice and soggy when you get home. The hamburger bun, all those things are just not the same as when they got it at the restaurant.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

So did you start delivering post-pandemic?

 

Wing Lam:

Basically, we’ve done a lot of delivery, so what we, what are the, I call it, switches that I made is, I figured out what the best food that would travel well, and that’s what I tell my customers to order. The burritos, for some reason, the longer it sits in that little foil, the better that gets, because the flavors start blending together, it doesn’t get any soggier or any, you know, cold or anything else, because it stays nice and hot. So you got to acclimate, you know, so and it was also easy during the pandemic to have individual meals that was portable and didn’t drip all over yourself. So like, unlike a chicken sandwich or a burger, you need two hands because that thing is just gonna run all over you. A burrito that’s wrapped in foil stays nice and easy to eat.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

So are you not delivering, I mean, do you not open other items for delivery?

 

Wing Lam:

We are still doing the delivery, but the margins aren’t there. So the idea that, I need people, restaurants, we need people to dine in. Delivering food for a restaurant, not a ghost kitchen, for restaurants, the dining is where the margins are at.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

And what about the ghost kitchens?

 

Wing Lam:

What was that?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

What about the ghost kitchens?

 

Wing Lam:

The ghost kitchen is basically a glorified, you know, commissary or glorified food hall or, they work well, but again, you need density. So if you’re in a downtown area, it works well because there’s a lot of people that live there, there’s density. And most people that live in, I call it small quarters, they don’t want to cook. So like a Manhattan, you know, like in New York City, when you have all these concentration of people, I guarantee you most people never cook in their apartments because it’s too small.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Yeah.

 

Wing Lam:

So that’s where ghost kitchens really work because you have less staff and all that. But if you come to Newport Beach, it’s a 50-50. And the issue you have there is not that they don’t work, it’s that most college students, they tend to order takeout after 11 o’clock at night. And think about it, if I can’t get people to work during my regular hours, you think anybody wants to work after 11? So it’s again, the dilemmas, right?

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

But isn’t that a big opportunity? Like, ordering at night?

 

Wing Lam:

It’s a great opportunity.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

And I see a lot less people really making, you know, most of it. I mean, I’m like in Bay Area, in San Francisco, it just baffles me that how limited the options are post 11.

 

Wing Lam:

Because think about it, would your wife want you to work after 11 o’clock at night? 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Maybe. 

 

Wing Lam:

And that’s the dilemma, because in the restaurants in general, the number one issue is already working Friday and Saturday nights. So think about it, as a manager, the store is not gonna run by itself at midnight to 5 in the morning. So who’s gonna manage that operation? Usually it’s not a young person, usually somebody who’s already married.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

But I see a lot of large brands, like for example, I can tell you with no disrespect to Wendy’s, I think in the last one year, any time I’ve had a Wendy’s burger, that was at, you know, because I’m ordering at 1 a.m. Yeah, but again, they were the only ones available or, you know.

 

Wing Lam:

But there are certain, you know, types of restaurant chains that it doesn’t require, I call it a chef, you know, it doesn’t require, because it’s buttons, right? Two minutes on one side, one minute there. So relatively speaking, it’s easier to manage, right? That’s why pizza places, in general, tend to be the ones open late at night. And I mean, not saying that it doesn’t require a lot, but relatively speaking, easier to train somebody to make pizza than anything else in that scale.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

You don’t really require chef skills?

 

Wing Lam:

No, no, yeah. You can do, you can train somebody relatively easier. And if it’s, like you say, not tossing the whole thing around, but basically it’s almost ready to go, yeah.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

What’s happening with Wahoos now?

 

Wing Lam:

Well, now we’re getting ready to go back into Austin, Texas, because we did lose a couple of the stores there. So hopefully by this summer, we’ll be there. I’m looking at other locations to see if we can, you know, there’s a handful in California that we’re looking at. We’re also going back into airports. Universities, we’re talking again, because it’s, again, we did well during pre-pandemic, but universities shut down, some of the airport locations shut down, some of the venues shut down. So it’s all opening. Everything’s back to full speed again. So it’s just basically, and we got to find that sweet spot again on how do we get back to making real money, not, I call it, you know, pennies on the dollar.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Wing, who are you as a leader? Like people who work with you directly, who are either reporting to you or who are, you know, directly impacting the area of work that you do?

 

Wing Lam:

Well, to me, it’s like my DMs, because I like crazy ideas, because I also do a lot of the menu development part and a lot of the marketing. So the idea that even today, it’s, you know, we can talk about it being March 11, 3-11. There’s a band that’s very famous called 3-11. Today, there’s a campaign that if you come into any Wahoos, you buy three tacos, you get a free soda and a free order of chips, 3-1-1, right? So the whole idea. But I have then to talk to all my DMs, hey, how do we execute, make sure that we tell the customers, hey, here’s the promotion. So all my crazy ideas to bring people in, and I got to talk to my DMs, how is this able to be executed? One of the other bands we’re talking to for the summer, they’re launching the 60th anniversary of the, not the end of summer, but the Beach Boys. So how do we do something with them? So a lot of my ideas, I mean, for the last three weeks and the next few weeks, this is Lent for the Catholic Church. So we do Lent Fridays where we promote eating fish on Fridays. So a lot of my things goes, hey, it’s going to drive people, but then how do we execute and get them to come back? So I’m always talking to operations because my crazy ideas are only as good as I can execute them on the back end. So again, having some technology augment this might make my process easier.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

What’s the manual you give to people when they are dealing with you? Like what to take care of, how to not piss you off, and what happens when they piss you off?

 

Wing Lam:

Basically, don’t come to me with, I call it problems, come with me with ideas, right? Because if you say, hey, this isn’t working, I’m like, yes, I can see it’s not working, but what are we going to do about it? So when you come to me with the problems, come up with like two or three ideas of maybe what we can do about it, right? Because me complaining, I already get enough that from the customers, I don’t need it from you guys too, right? So as a team, how do we win the game together, right? So how do I make your job easier? How do I make my job easier, right? So at the end of the day, we’re all trying to solve the same issue, right? Increase the bottom line, traffic, all that, because if we can take care of the top number, the bottom number will take care of itself.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

And the promotions that you’re talking about, how many of them are like local bases, like the city or the state your stores are in, or is it like a national campaign each time?

 

Wing Lam:

Some are local, but most of them are national, because there’s plenty of Catholic, you know, Catholic goers all over the country. So we share the ideas, we share the videos and all the promotions. 311 is touring across the country, so there are opportunities to do promotions all over the country. Summertime, there’ll be other bands touring. So some of the local festivals we’re going to only do here, but a lot of the tours are national and international, so we can do some really fun stuff. So the part of me is, if we’re going to do anything, might as well have a little bit of fun doing it, because again, nothing against the Beach Boys, they’ve been around for 60 years, but I’m sure there’s plenty of us that still want to meet them, right? Because it’s just fun, you know? So there’s a big part. And like being in Vegas, I mean, we have a great franchisee here, man, it’s just about, hey, what can we do in Vegas? Because Vegas is the only store that has the video pokers in it, too. So if you talk about technology, they’ve always been ahead of everybody else, because there’s the player’s card. They’re the first, I think, to use it anywhere, right? So it really tracks the consumer spending, the habits and all that. So as soon as they hit that $25 threshold, here comes the free chips. As soon as they hit that, here comes the gin and tonic, whatever. So there’s drinks, there’s food, there’s all these different things. And we know everything about the customer spending habits, right? In this case, the gambling habits, right? So these are amazing things. So why not? I learned from it because I think the player’s card was I think one of the first and I think supermarkets were the other one where you sign up and you get the discounts, right? So those are again the loyalties all that they spin around. It’s just restaurants now are finally beginning to really catch on because it’s about frequency because once you get a customer it’s way easier to get them to come back than to try to get a new one.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

I’ve been hearing this notion from I mean the undertone what I’m experiencing last two years post-pandemic is that a lot of big boys and restaurants like large brands, they are feeling that American market is kind of saturated for them and they’re kind of venturing out. Like I can tell you that this week I had the third brand who basically said, well we don’t really have much space left in the American market for us and we are going to like for next five years we are only looking at global expansion and this is the third brand in a week. On the other side I also see that you know the local, the new restauranters are minting you know everywhere. What’s you know, how do you see restaurant industries evolution from this lens in the next couple years?

 

Wing Lam:

It’s going to be more about like I the consumer now, you got to give them a reason to come to you and I call it not just come to you but just get out of the house in general because these days you know the only movie theaters like we go to now are those all-inclusives where you can literally, it feels like you’re at home. You’re in a lounge chair, they bring food to you but it’s not a cheap date so at the time you take a family of four you’re looking at a couple hundred dollars to go watch a movie. We can very easily just you know do it at home via cable whatever. So the experience is what you want to have right? So I look at theme parks, I look at fine dining because guess what? I don’t care how good of a cook you are at home, for some reason one you can’t get the quality or two you can’t get that thermal you know cooker to go to 1800 degrees right? So there’s certain things like so I see the high end as a destination where again you don’t have to do the dishes, you don’t have to do all that and more important you have an expense account because my belief is because a lot of top end guys don’t you know spend a lot of their money doing lunches anymore because one they don’t have to go to the office. They have a much larger expense account come the weekends that they can entertain the top clients. So I see a lot of that so the rest of us have to figure out if we’re not getting the day workers, what are we really getting?

Maybe we’re getting the moms, maybe we’re getting the kids. So what kind of experience can we bring to the kids that is different than them going to somewhere else? Because at the end of the day you know everybody in the fast food end it’s about convenience because is somebody’s burger that much better than the other one? You know I think it’s more about the convenience and location right? So then in the middle we’re kind of now getting a little bit of that as well because there’s so many of us. When I started pretty much there was a handful of quick casuals. Now like you said there’s a lot of us so what’s the difference between us and the other ones right? So if you can find that besides a location right because again if you’re on main street on the beach you got a location you can beat everybody else but there’s only so many main streets so you got to have something else. So maybe you’re near a movie theater, you’re near a mall maybe so the destination thing becomes a big factor.

So I think to me it’s like hey you can’t skateboard at home you got to be next to a skateboard park that might be an option right? So to me I love the idea of having like a surf pool because I’ve been to a few and there’s nothing like it. So if I could build more restaurants around surf pools that’s what I really personally because then I can go surfing too right? So a little bit of that. Well you know I love Topgolf. I mean that is the model because golf ranges dime a dozen. Topgolf is an experience.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Interesting. So you are saying that are you encouraging new restauranters to you know have you know like small boutique experience than let’s say you know a large chain that is thriving? Because with this post-pandemic I can also see that a large percentage of business went to known brands in the name of hygiene and processes and whatnot. I know that it’s probably not there anymore but some of it really stuck.

 

Wing Lam:

Yeah it’s a combination because even malls today I mean Macy’s just announced that within what the next three years they’re going to be gone anyway right? So but you just got to find the places where the kids are going, the families are going right? Because there’s certain businesses that are booming and like Disneyland you can’t go anywhere but to see let’s see Mickey there’s only two places on well in America anyway but there’s others around the world. So something along those lines where they can’t get anywhere else and they got to come to you right? And that means meaning and not necessarily just your restaurant but like something that’s next to you whether it’s a bowling alley, a tennis you know facility, a golf club whatever that means right? Because then it’s going to be part of that ritual you know. It doesn’t mean you need to be at the golf course unless like it’s a top golf because then you have a really cool captive audience right? But golf courses, tennis clubs in general they’re not that busy anymore than we are but if you’re near one that might enhance the experience.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Right what do you how do you keep yourself nurtured? How do you what do you do for the brain? What do you do for the soul?

 

Wing Lam:

What we started is during pre-pandemic about 50% of what we do in the community is about the community right? So it’s about the charities, the schools and organizations. So during the pandemic it was more by accident than anything else we started a group called the California Love Drop and that really is the model going forward because one it allows us to not say remember we started this whole thing about not being self-centered having user-generated content. When there’s a group of us friends that say hey we’re doing this on behalf of the California Love Drop and in it there’s all the different components the yoga lens and all that so it’s not self-centered. So what we used to do just for the front liners we now do for multiple charities and local communities. So we are able to deliver computers to the Boys and Girls Club. We’re able to deliver backpacks to the YMCA. So we’re able to do a lot of things and in that delivery in taking care of the kids there’s going to be a little bit of frozen yogurt and some maybe some monster energy drinks. So we’re able to tell our story a community story that isn’t like look at what Wahoos did. 

It’s about this group and through it because we were able to create this we partnered with a few local media outlets and the most impressive to me is a radio station in southern California called KLOS which is an old rock station and just so happens that the morning DJs are the number one DJs in southern California. So having Heidi and Frank as our partners in this movement it gave us this platform to not only talk about on social media but talk about it on the radio. So think about that for a second be able to be on the radio every week and talk about what you’re doing in the community and mentioning some of the brands that are involved. So I call it traditional media validates the social and vice versa because a lot of people over 30 would have never heard of us but because they listen to the radio they’re like oh guys I’ve heard of you. So it’s kind of fun to be out and about and having somebody says oh my god I just saw you at this event or I heard you on the radio. So that’s what’s kept us going and now that the pandemic’s kind of like semi behind us all of our friends says but we really enjoyed this four years together can we keep doing it like why not because I did all the charity events anyway so now instead of just doing it as Wahoos we do it as the California Love Drop and we joke about spreading the love.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Do you read do you or any podcasts what do you what do you do to keep your you know to keep your learning engine on?

 

Wing Lam:

Mine is teaching. So I love lecturing which I do all the time and more important you know I do career days at different colleges and all that. I’ve taken a little sabbatical because I have an eight-year-old but I spend a lot of time pre having my son teaching marketing at three different MBA schools in Orange County which for a guy who only took one marketing class I think it’s pretty funny 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Awesome

 

Wing Lam:

but and I teach basic case studies on how to take companies from A to B and real companies and I basically use it as both sides is building your own brand is really the name of the I got the gist of it because whether or not you’re going to work for somebody or you’re going to start a new company it’s all about what you bring to the table whether you’re a person or a company. So I’ve had great success teaching it I currently am talking to Chapman University about going back because the new dean heard about my crazy ideas and the way I used to teach loves it and you know so I’m contemplating right now just finding the time though but I really enjoy and by teaching I get a lot of stuff that what’s going on now right so you get oh that’s old school that’s the way we did it but how do we do it now because things are changing right and it’s much rapid now and you don’t need nearly as much money as you did back then because you might just be able to start in your literally your garage you don’t need a brick and mortar to do a lot of the things that are happening right now so it’s an interesting time but teaching is really fun and basically you know seeing I call the kids the students go aha right and recently I did it with a high school and a lot of the things that they wanted me to implement on TikTok and Instagram were things that I used to do in print they just have a new platform but it’s basically the same model just in a different platform so I joked with the teacher goes maybe I can have these kids for the summer and she’s we’re talking right now about getting interns for the first time we’re talking about getting 15 year olds and because they understand how to talk to the 15 year olds.

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

That is so awesome I think you found the portal yeah to you know be in touch with 15 and 24 and 30 year olds today yeah ring that was a phenomenal conversation a lot of learning for me but loved really every bit of it congratulations on what you’re doing at Wahoos what you’ve done so far and really excited to see what’s coming thank you.

 

Wing Lam:

Thanks for having me.