Ashish Tulsian

Hi. Welcome to Restrocast. Today my guest is Phil Crawford. CTO, Carl’s Jr restaurants. Phil’s journey’s phenomenal because it’s a journey of having first job as a 16 year old at Carl’s Jr to serving as a CTO of the group and on the way working with or rather contributing to some of the most iconic brands in the world. Phil is somebody who you relate to because he’s not the C level technology executive who is going to prove or or going to look like the stereotype, the the stereotype that comes to your head. I have been in technology business all my life, and I when I see technology people, I will not really call them boring. I’m a technology, you know, a technologist myself, but, you know, you don’t really see a guy, you know, fully tattooed. You know, the vibe is all punk and rock, as you know, in his own words. I enjoyed this conversation. I’m sure you will. Welcome to this Restrocast. Phil, Welcome to Restrocast.

Phil Crawford

Thanks for having me.

Ashish Tulsian

Thank you. Thank you for doing this.

Phil Crawford

I like the accommodations.

Ashish Tulsian

Well, we didn’t do much, but yeah, Phil, we know what you do today. Yeah, but I would love to, you know, have you talk about what is your day job today? What is it that you do today at CKE? And then we will dive into, you know, your early life and all started.

Phil Crawford

Back when I was a little boy?

Ashish Tulsian

I mean, we can debate on the size.

Phil Crawford

Perfect. So, like, you know, the title doesn’t always justify what I do on a daily basis. Like, my goal in my organization is I lead technology and I lead strategy and innovation for what we’re trying to do. And that’s a large, encompassing umbrella, right? It can cover anything from infotech, infosec, infrastructure, all the infos you can think of in essence. But really my day to day is really to empower my people to come up with radical solutions that move our brand forward, but also support our franchisee groups to make sure they get the best possible technology experience and that. I kid you not, that’s what it is. My day is about probably 70% with my team in some different capacity and the other 30% is about strategy, innovation and my own, you know, moonbeams going out, trying to figure out what to do. Because without my team, I’m not successful, period. And so it may be a little bit of a a divestiture of what people typically think a technology person does. It’s a lot of collaboration, a lot of innovation, a lot of think tanking like we were talking about earlier, about like big Silicon Valley’s, a lot of it comes from that. So if you were to go see my office, I’ll send you guys a picture like it’s like a cartoon town. It’s Star Wars toys. It’s two white boards, it’s puppets. It’s like a fun and inviting intimate space on purpose because it is to foster creativity. I think so many offices and so many organizations neglect the number one asset that they have, which is their people. And I think that the people that we have there, especially in the technology, have radical ideas and they need a place to be, you know, entertain you in a place where they can experiment and come across different ideas and thoughts. And that’s what my day to day is I mean, that’s the work side of it. Now, the personal side is totally different. Like I’m up at 04:30, I’m usually at the gym, I’m on, I’m running, I’m on email, I’m getting kids off to school, I’m doing my backpack on driving to the office, which is nice like 15, 20 minutes from house. Unlike previous life, which was like an hour and a half commute on a train was radically different. Then I reach the office. And to get home and hang out with the kids, make dinner, hang out with the wife like that’s what it’s about, right? It’s a complete balance between work and life. But I love what I do because I work with the people that I love. That’s that’s.

Ashish Tulsian

That’s quite wholesome.

Phil Crawford

Yeah, it’s but it served me well. Like people think that is the antithesis of what I do, because I’ve known to do some pretty radical stuff, technology wise to move our industry forward. And they think it’s just me. Now, I’m blessed to work with people that I have worked with in the past and will in the future, that we’ve built things together and we’ve stayed together longer term because that’s how fosters and growth happens. 

Ashish Tulsian

We’re definitely, definitely going to be doing to dive deep into all of the radical stuff that you have done, you know, in the industry before that, you know, where it all started. So take me through your early years. Where did you grow up and how the career and how did you come to this career we’ll come to that and how it progressed.

Phil Crawford

So we’ll go back a certain part, we’ll go back all the way. So I grew up in Southern California, born and raised. You like you can kind of tell whether the surfer mentality, Southern California kind of vibe. I’ve always had a passion for the restaurant space. Irony, my first job in the restaurant space was at Carl’s Junior. Yeah. When I was really when I was 16. So now I’ve come completely full 360. Now I head up technology for a worldwide brand that has 4000 restaurants.

Ashish Tulsian

So that feels this Carl’s Jr feels like home.

Phil Crawford

It does feel like home because growing up in that culture, right, a surf culture with burgers was kind of near and dear to my heart. And then growing up through high school and so forth, like literally my first computer, just a really date myself was like a Commodore 64 and like in Vic 128 with the old monstrosity drive and your programing. Like, that’s how I got my, my initial start. And so I just carried it through. And I’ve always been in some aspect of the hospitality industry, whether it be through high school or going to college in Arizona, like I used to run rooms at hotels. And why? Because you can run the night shift and you can study and you’re still part of the hospitality and you always make friends with the food and beverage directors because they’re going to feed you as a best way to get through college. So and it just kind of stuck with it, right? And through that and you get through college and you get through different parts of your career, whether it be on the vendor side, which I’ve worked for some amazing vendor side companies or now on my side, right, which is which is the restaurant side of the business and having a balance between the two. So I’ve worked a variety of shifts in the restaurant space. I’ve worked behind the counter, I’ve worked cashiers, I’ve worked grill, I’ve worked fry, like I’ve.

Ashish Tulsian

That was in the early formative stage?

Phil Crawford

Yeah, like but I also did it through college, right? You do what you have to do, you take out trash, scrub dishes at hotels.

Ashish Tulsian

But that’s what, that’s for the, you know, that’s for the pocket money. Right. Or is it is it because you wanted to get into this career?

Phil Crawford

I wanted to understand what this is all about, because when you have a fire inside you and you kind of want to know where the fire came from and you want to learn every facet about this business. And so every facet really means every facet. You got to look at every single job activity, whether it be from a hotel general manager or to a CEO of a restaurant organization all the way down to a dishwasher and understand every different skill set kind of reframes who you are as a person, but also puts it in perspective.

Ashish Tulsian

But you were also studying technology?

Phil Crawford

Yes.

Ashish Tulsian

So I’m just trying to understand when you were trying to study technology, why were you interested in like the entire spectrum of things that happened at a restaurant?

Phil Crawford

Because there’s actually there was not technology really in the in the play back then. I mean, we had printers in the kitchen and back office machine and so forth. So I always I always thought about it as a way of where you could learn about how emerging technology was coming up and how it might actually change an industry. And I saw over time, whether it be hotels or restaurants, some emerging things come out right, new advances in point of sale or kitchen display systems or back then digital menu board and these radical new things started. And so through college and school and education and like how can you apply these these new modern tech stacks that are coming out and again, this is 20, 30 years ago. That was unheard of in these spaces. It never really had it. And so that’s how I kind of stuck with it all the way through it. It was a passion for the tech and a passion for the food and beverage.

Ashish Tulsian

Right from the start?

Phil Crawford

Right from the start.

Ashish Tulsian

Phil this is this is absolutely crazy.

Phil Crawford

It is. But it’s like it makes you burn. People go like, what do you do for a living? Like, I have one of the greatest careers ever because I love what I do. I have a complete passion because I grew up with a passion. I have a passion where I can play with the technology and be in food and beverage. I took a three year hiatus, a two year hiatus, excuse me, and went to the retail side. So I’m jumping here. I’ll come back to that. So I took two years off and went to go to Godiva. And then Godiva was an international role more than I was at Shake Shack because I am missing part of the international side, but also manufacturing and supply chain. So I saw it is again, a continual way to learn, albeit it had a food and beverage component to it. It was a part of it. But coming back to your ethos, which is food and beverage in and of its core is why I always come back and we’ll be here in some facets or some way.

Ashish Tulsian

What was your first job?

Phil Crawford

I told you, Carl’s Jr.

Ashish Tulsian

Yeah, that was that was when you were 16.

Phil Crawford

yeah. I’m sorry. Yes, that was my first job. But that was back, you know, that was in high school, right? And when you got to get a first job and then through time, my career has progressed. So I’ve worked for, again, for hotels. My first big break, quite frankly, outside the vendor side was with Yard House. Yard House is now owned by Darden.

Ashish Tulsian

And that was 2002?

Phil Crawford

2002, Correct. And really worked with some amazing leaders there that really kind of shaped of who I am today as a leader.

Ashish Tulsian

What exactly was your role at Yard house?

Phil Crawford

So believe me, I started just as a regular director of IT Right? They were small up and coming Brand in Irvine, California, that I sold them their point of sale system and you know the partners.

Ashish Tulsian

You sold them their Point of sale system?

Phil Crawford

Yeah, and worked on it the same time.

Ashish Tulsian

Like who’s what were you?

Phil Crawford

HSI micros back in the day. And so being that guy that understood the business and the technology became kind of a natural fit. And as they grew, you know, Harold Herman, Steel Platt, Craig Carlisle, Jeff Fuchs, all gentlemen that I have a good, good rapport with Even still to today, gave a chance to a young guy. And after that.

Ashish Tulsian

And what does your like what does, what does that role, like, like what did you do there?

Phil Crawford

Everything you can think of anything technology wise.

Ashish Tulsian

Take me Through that.

Phil Crawford

The whole entire thing. So early stages, it was about how do we further differentiate our brand and it how do you bring new technologies to a brand that’s going to have massive growth. And we did, whether it be the audio visual systems that were state of the art and nobody was doing through Mac and through iTunes back in the day and through third party programs like MegaSeg to working with the keg line systems by putting electromagnetic pulse through them with the beer guys to updating modern reservation system by using SMS text early stages that nobody was doing. Right, Custom developing sequencing code for Steel Platt so you could sync music across the nation for songs like. And outside of that, then you had core enterprise systems that again more cloud based full on DR, disaster recovery centers, one in Irvine, one in Dallas. So really at Yard House, it was kind of the first overall venture into IT.

Ashish Tulsian

How large was this? The you know, how how how big was Yard House when you joined?

Phil Crawford

I think it was five restaurants. And when I left, we were at 45, 46, and we sold it to Darden. So massive growth over the ten plus years I was there. But really it was because at that time they had just run the nation’s restaurant award for the hot concept and we were growing rapidly and they realized early stages, like Jeff Fuches, who is still a great friend today. And Harold, and Steel and Carlito and the list goes on and on and on. Jennifer and I can name more like 10 seconds, but I won’t. We saw the avenue of where technology needed to go and be part of it. Even out of that entire group of folks. We built also a charity foundation based on technology called Round It Up America that’s still alive today.

Ashish Tulsian

What does it do?

Phil Crawford

Round up your check to the nearest dollar and we give the money through the restaurants, to food banks around the nation. And I’m still on the board. Like that’s how much impact technology had on that concept. And simply because we put a part of our ethos that we were a restaurant technology first company, we wanted to make sure that we knew the technology outside of amazing food outside of an amazing bar and the audiovisual that a key component was making sure the technology stacks work. You’re also very, very busy. These are 20 plus million dollar businesses. These are massive.

Ashish Tulsian

Yeah. Yard house is, They’re huge.

Phil Crawford

Yeah, huge. And so there’s so much running behind the scenes.

Ashish Tulsian

I’ve been to one in Vegas.

Phil Crawford

One in Vegas. I built a lot of those. A lot of blood, sweat and tears at night. Like, literally, I was pulling cable down and the guys in there.

Ashish Tulsian

Those are large spaces.

Phil Crawford

They were.

Ashish Tulsian

Like crazy mad. Yeah.

Phil Crawford

So we did every part of it. I did. You know what I started? It was myself. And over time, I grew a team. And even those guys to the date I still talk to. Like one of them just got promoted to a VP of IT For a nationwide sushi brand like the people that you build in these industries because you cut your teeth with them is what it makes up to. So to your point earlier, like everything you can think of inside the four walls we did, but also with the technology side too, we’re getting phone calls at two in the morning. We’re troubleshooting point of sale systems. We’re rolling out voice IP systems over phones, stuff that was kind of radically different for our industry at that time. Really kind of put a moniker and a stamp on the first part of the career, which was amazing. And it was bittersweet to leave that role because we sold it. Yeah, and we all had different equity in 2012. Yeah, we all different exits because the team stuck together, like our leadership team was together the entire time. No turnover and the growth and we went through a crisis or two during that time, 2008 like we all hunkered down and made that concept what it was. And it really was one of the best cultures we’ve ever had. A lot of good instilled leadership, values and qualities. I still carry forward because at that time period, because of the gentleman and the ladies I worked with, there.

Ashish Tulsian

What after Yard House?

Phil Crawford

I took a year. So TSG was our private equity firm in Yard House, and they had a concept called My Fit Foods out of Texas and needed, again, a technology stack there to roll, which at that time was a retail component, like a dietary. You buy your food in bulk, lose weight, eat healthy. That was the premise of it. To grow that, they thought it was a big vehicle. They invested in it, so they brought a couple of us from Yard House, my supply chain lead Miranda and myself from a technology standpoint obviously, to their ownership to grow out that concept. And you know, it was successful to a point and then literally about a year in Texas and then a year to the day, you know, I was obviously talking with some friends. I joined Shake Shack, which out of New York. So there you go. So now I’m going from California, right? Stop off in Texas. Now I’m heading off to New York. So I’m going coast to coast and totally different lifestyles. I wake up in the morning, head to the beach, going to the office, vibes, tacos and beer to getting up and it’s 20 degrees outside and snowing and hopping on trains, You go into Manhattan, you’re going to get run over or you’re going to run somebody over. Yeah. So and I was blessed to be have an opportunity to go to Shake Shack. And I got the opportunity to go to Shake Shack because of my connections at Yard House through Jeff Fuches who today is still an amazing friend and colleague and peer quite frankly and we did some amazing things there at Shake Shack.

Ashish Tulsian

Shake Shack is a great brand.

Phil Crawford

With with Randy Garrity and Zach Koff and Danny Meyer. Like when I joined, it was not the behemoth, you know out today. It was much smaller. I think I joined in the early dozens or so of restaurants, maybe really when even in.

Ashish Tulsian

Really? Even in 2013, it was so small?

Phil Crawford

It was it was smaller. It wasn’t as big as it is now. So I joined and our premise there was at that point we were part of USHG, obviously we had a path to go public. It was how do you split the restaurant and build an entire tech stack that at that time could grow up to 500 restaurants? Introduced some again, radical new things point of sale systems aside, like we had pagers, how do we automate a pager? So when you bump it off the kitchen, it buzzes a pager. Nobody was doing it Like we built our own custom kiosks, right? We built our own custom apps. We’ve won awards for all that stuff. But again, I would because the team what we’ve done there over the years made it the concept technology was what I still think it is today. We built infrastructure right there and things over time changed. It’s been several years now since I’ve been removed, but it’s just been part of that entire journey that it once again, you can kind of take that ethos, phenomenal, culture.

Ashish Tulsian

I want to ask you about what does it what what about, you know, Shake Shack’s culture that you, you know, not only admired you like you continue to carry with you?

Phil Crawford

I carry I think a lot of the Shake Shack culture was you know stand for something good right. And it really is and Randy used to always say the larger we get the smaller we have to think like basically don’t forget where you came from and that really was a super highly functional team that really treated the employees with the greatest respect. I mean, they did some amazing planning. Peggy Rebenzzer who’s an amazing, you know, HR Professional and leader in our industry helped build and foster team manuals and guides to do growth and continuation for career advancement. Stuff that was radical leveraging new LMS systems that, you know, really kind of got on the social side before social was social. Like how do we connect with these people in a platform they can integrate with? And more importantly, it really became down to understanding of what our employees needed and treat them with the ultimate respect. And that culture there really foster that growth of that company. That’s why you.

Ashish Tulsian

How much of Denny Meyers still, you know, exists?

Phil Crawford

I think a lot of his his mentorship and a lot of his philosophies are still ingrained in the core part of Shake Shack. I mean, Shake Shack now itself and its own animal, its its own business. You can follow it in obviously the news. He sits on the board. But I still think Danny Meyer’s enlightened hospitality is still a very strong hold in that company as well. It should be. I think a lot of companies, regardless of industry, should follow. One of the great examples of being a 51 percenter, like people say you drank the Kool-Aid. I’m glad I drank that Kool-Aid because I learned a lot from that man and that a lot and that leadership team overall and a lot of people have grown up following his footsteps and following his basic principles about treating others in enlightened hospitality, you know, in charitable assumption, like the things roll off tongue because you live it and you believe it all at the same time.

Ashish Tulsian

You know how I discovered Danny Meyer’s involvement with Shake Shack? And that was that was quite phenomenal for me. So I you know, I didn’t know his involvement that in fact, I didn’t know him. I knew Union Square Cafe. Sure. And then and then I knew that this guy, Danny Meyer’s, was, you know, behind it. And and I used to admire Shake Shack, you know, I used to be like, wow, what a or what a good, great brand silent, really doing their stuff, loyal customers. Every Shake Shack, I think was running on word of mouth completely. And then one day I read this book. This book is called Small Giants. By the end of the book it says the companies who decided to be I don’t know. Sorry I missed the byline anyway to get it’s called Small Giants, right? It’s basically it talks about entrepreneurs who did not take the path, like to become big in the short term. You know, really stuck to their guns, stuck to their laurels, made sure that they’re doing the right thing all the time. And then the business just, you know, grew. It did, you know, evolutionary. And that’s where it said Danny Meyers and it said Shake Shack. And I, I can tell you that I stopped reading. I was jumping. I was like, wow, this is so phenomenal. Like a guy that I admire and I and a brand that I admire. And then and, you know, the connection turns out to be this way. This that is phenomenal for me.

Phil Crawford

It was phenomenal work in there. And again, I mean, again, it’s another part of your career that I’m very proud of to be associated with doing so many cool things you do and technology wise. But again, a comes goes back to Yard house and you kind of foster where you want to go and grow where you came from, feel comfortable with like a lot of people say the easiest way is the path of least resistance. So I disagree. The easiest way is the most resistance that you get the best, the best ideas and the best things. And that was one of the successes between Yard house and Shake Shack, like we did our own thing, like we were the anti-chain chain, right? Everything was shack-ified in some way. Like because we wanted to be that ethos. We never did a loyalty program. We they still don’t have it because of the word of mouth. They’re the in and out burger of the East Coast, in essence, because they have the cult following, because they exist, they embody what is about the concept, which is about stand for something good and enlightened hospitality. Good, great quality product, right at a reasonable price. And the experience. Every building is different. Every building is unique, every building has a social gathering place. Like all these things resonate with people because they want to feel part of a community gathering place.

Ashish Tulsian

That’s amazing that you say that because in today morning I was talking to Wade and it’s exactly what you were talking about that, you know, I don’t understand. When loyalty programs generally pivot around giving points earn and burn and discounts to the loyal customers. And I’m like, you know what? In the restaurant, it’s confusing because if I’m a loyal customer, I’m going to come to I want to have that food anyway. If you are giving me a discount, then you’re stupid because I am not coming for discount. And if I am coming for a discount, then you need to improve your food because I mean, there’s some confusion, you know?

Phil Crawford

So I mean, you’re right. Shake Shack doesn’t discount, Yard house, never discounted. I obviously work now for a major QSR. Right. And that’s also built into their ethos of doing FSI and coupons. And loyalty is different for QSR because of space is different.

Ashish Tulsian

I mean, when when you’re when you are. Yeah it’s it’s different. I mean, when you are gunning for frequency, it’s a different problem.

Phil Crawford

Totally different game. Yeah. But, you know, I think I think the passion that the leadership had at Shake Shack was bringing Shake Shack to the world. I remember with Michael Carrick when they first opened their first couple international locations. Like it was crazy that under the first ten restaurant they’re going international for you Nuts. Great, let’s be nuts. Let’s be radically different because we know they have something there. Like they know their burger’s different. They know that the ethos of what it stood for, they were the heart of it had a story. It had a a monicker like you name the analogy, you name the key word. It was there. And they and we believed it and they still believe it today, I’m sure. I mean, I’m not obviously involved in the day to day.

Ashish Tulsian

I’ve seen queues outside Shake Shack in Dubai. It’s crazy, right? I mean, it’s absolutely crazy because, you know, it’s not a brand that which is a household name technically.

Phil Crawford

It’s not.

Ashish Tulsian

It has its own audience.

Phil Crawford

It does. But it also has a mystique of New York City. People are infatuated in New York City. So it’s kind of like the Westernization of Asiapac, EMEA and so on and so forth. Again, I think we did some cool stuff at Shake Shack because I had and again, I had an amazing team. I had phenomenal heads of technology, you know, still guys, I know today I had John Carlo and Brett and Anoop and Tony like these amazing guys that today are still pillars in different parts of the industries or even outside the industries because they all bleed the same thing. We all worked hard, played hard and enjoyed it and enjoy each other’s cultures. More importantly, enjoy each other’s, you know, embodiment and their values. And that just kind of carried forward. It’s that same principles that we’ve lived on from Yard House into there. And again, it’s a great opportunity to work with Jeff again and and the leadership team and yeah it was crazy Great times Rocket ship like Yard House was a rocket ship. Shake Shack was a rocket ship.

Ashish Tulsian

Yeah. So you were you were at Shake Shack in there like.

Phil Crawford

Pre IPO.

Ashish Tulsian

Fastest growing years.

Phil Crawford

During the crazy times, which is what I love it’s organized chaos in every possible way like it’s it’s you don’t know what you don’t know, but that’s okay I actually enjoy not knowing what I don’t know several times because that’s how you learn and you make it as you go. So a lot of the system and a lot of the policies and procedures I’m sure have changed over time because companies have to evolve and grow. But at those early stages, you’re right. Like again, you’re trying stuff that nobody had done before and some will stick some won’t stick. You’re trying different LTOs, you’re trying different technology platforms, you’re trying different nuances of how things work and implementing new software solutions that are outside the industry coming in the industry for the first time, like, what are you doing? Why not? Can’t go wrong cause you can go back and rip it out. So early stages is awesome. It’s also come with a lot of risk. There’s also a lot of reward.

Ashish Tulsian

What after Shake Shack?

Phil Crawford

After Shake Shack, I left and went to Godiva for a couple of years. So Shake Shack was an amazing run, right? I saw my my path and trajectory. I’m also a big believer of always continue yourself growing in yourself. I was missing the international side of the business and the supply chain and the manufacturing side. And that opportunity came up and I took it. Like most people said, I can’t believe you left two amazing brands. And left the industry. You’ll be back. And my buddies, Joe Tanzer and Bryan Pearson and you will be listening to this entire thing or watch it and say, we told you so. And yes, they’re right. So I left for a couple of years and did that again. I worked for another me amazing couple Leadership teams. Murat Ulker, who’s obviously a Turkish owner and you know, and who was our CEO and worked with a whole slew of different international professionals and really kind of grow what Godiva was pre-pandemic. And unfortunately, the pandemic hit in the middle of it and kind of shut down a lot of different plans. Overall, we were lucky enough to get e-commerce sites up and running. We were in the process of rolling out worldwide ERP, which I believe actually help sustain a lot of those organizational growth ahead of, and I met head of international IT Steve Whitelamb He was amazing as well. And a lot of the systems that were in place back in the day, I think helped sustain the growth.

Ashish Tulsian

And this was your first tryst with retail?

Phil Crawford

This is the first time with retail, Correct. luxury Retail. Yes. Luxury chocolate retail 

Ashish Tulsian

True that. Yeah, there is definitely not traditional crazy.

Phil Crawford

Not at all.

Ashish Tulsian

But did you find retail, you know, much more evolved in technology than restaurants?

Phil Crawford

Absolutely. I think retail side is always going to be ahead of us. And that’s also, you know, it’s a blessing and it’s also a curse to the restaurant industry.

Ashish Tulsian

Why?

Phil Crawford

Because the rest of the retail side have to be quicker. There’s more retail outlets and there’s more there’s more, I think competitiveness in retail.

Ashish Tulsian

Thinner margins.

Phil Crawford

Thinner margins, more theft, call it what it is. You know it is. Yeah. But the retail side has always been ahead. They’ve also had kind of like travel and leisure and hospitality like airlines were the first to do kiosks and mobile boarding passes, like just like retail now with loyalty programs and like Amazon Go, you walk out and, you know, you don’t talk to anybody. The retail side of the business was fascinating because again, we own boutiques and we own retail outlets. How do we can we get technology immersed into those brands and bring loyalty to those? That’s part of that. It wasn’t too much too radical per se. Maybe the e-commerce side was more radical, but it was a safe place technology wise to a lot of big brands already done it in that luxury space. I mean, you name the Tiffany’s of the world, the Macy’s of the world, right, that had the technology stacks and some great leaders a.

Ashish Tulsian

Lot of it is solved.

Phil Crawford

It’s a lot of solved. There’s not anything kind of radically different there except when it came to manufacturing. Us being the manufacturer of chocolates and plants around the world. Understanding robotics, understanding line time and understanding the supply chain models were incredibly impactful to that part of the business, which again, I believe was one of my my shortcomings. And you go after your shortcoming, you try to focus on that was part of the retail side of it.

Ashish Tulsian

And then how come Carl’s Jr happen? 

Phil Crawford

Because I lost a bet to Joe and Brian. No I am kidding. Yeah, it came across that there was this is opportunity out of Tennessee of a of a brand that was looking for some change. Technology wise because they had a technology deficit and I think had been involved in quite a while. They tried it, didn’t get off the ground, tried it, didn’t get off the ground, and somebody said, hey, you should give it a shot. So through the interview process, it came up that it was Carl’s Jr and like light bulb! First job at 16. There’s no way this is the same concept. And, you know, I went through the process and I re-fell in love with Carl’s Junior after being gone away for so long. You know, I was I grew up in California. I went to school in Arizona. And like any young 20 years, I lived in Vegas, live in Colorado, I’ve lived everywhere. It feels like it was in Texas. You come back to it, you’re like, I know this brand, I know this concept. I know what they stood for. And the opportunity came across, you know, through Ned Lyerly. He was our CEO at the time, and Chad Crawford, who was a CMO and some great again, some great people there overall. And then obviously their work partnership to say, hey, we need to become relevant. How do we get digitally relevant? 3000 restaurants domestically under 1000 international. We’ve got to get on the map. Can you do it? Challenge accepted. And that was and that’s how I got the role, like writing a playbook, writing a strategy, writing an implementation plan to roll out infrastructure, security, point of sale, CDP, loyalty, digital ordering, third party ecosystems like accounting system, HR systems like you name it. It was on a list. And sure, we had we had the big groups coming in like McKinsey and BCG. Ironically, Cliff Dresner, who was the chief information Officer, I knew him because he was part of the working at Yard House when that got acquired by Darden. So we had a we knew him as well. So those 60 guys, I guess the moral of the story is never burn a bridge. The Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon wherever you go. So I always pay homage to those and take care of you and vice versa.

Ashish Tulsian

That’s a big one.

Phil Crawford

It is. So I you came across and I went for it. It was a it was probably the most one of the most exciting challenges I’ve had because national brands and but we represent two of the top ten QSRs in the nation a lot of headroom, lot of opportunity a lot of runway but also a big risk if you don’t do it because if you don’t do it, there’s a reason you got put in that role because predecessors may or may not have accomplished what they wanted to in a certain time. I was up for the challenge. Picked up the family moved to Tennessee. And fast forward three years as of September, we’ve accomplished nearly everything on that list.

Ashish Tulsian

Wow.

Phil Crawford

We’ve done more change in the last three years, probably in the last ten years at that brand. And again, it goes back to what I started this whole conversation about. It’s the team. Like my entire technology org is amazing. My five or six report directors, whether it be Tom, Melissa, Brian, Ryan, Dave, Rob, like Jason, like these people deserve equal credit as much as I do because of the team effort and then below them and then below them. Like the turnaround in IT is incredibly low because we foster this similar growth of culture inside of the technology department, which is empowerment, which is bringing ideas to the table. And today we have an app and we have digital ordering. We’re competing now on the same level field with Wendy’s, with Arby’s, with other Inspire brands, other work portfolio brands, albeit I wish we had their budgets. I don’t. Right. But we’re at the table now, which is important. And to get to that level is just been kind of like a moniker because everywhere I go I want to leave it better than I got, period and leave a flag in a statement as I go.

Ashish Tulsian

Who’s what’s your what a leadership like. I mean, I see that you’ve said a lot of stuff you know, already and, you know, it may get rehashed. Right. But I’ll just ask you to demystify that. Right. Empowerment and a lot of words. You know, every leader will say every leader will speak about. Right. How do you not want a couple of things that you actually, you know, can, you know, talk about in practice that really embody those words.

Phil Crawford

So there’s a passion in Craig Rochelle that I followed for a very long time and he has some great, great quotes. And one of them is people would rather follow a leader That’s true than The one that’s always right. And I believe in that his leadership podcast talks about that like I’m not a bullshit kind of guy. Like I’m a humble guy and I wear my colors on my sleeve, well it’s mostly for my tattoos now. It is just that’s how I am. I lead by example and I don’t expect anybody do any more than I would do. And I think that goes a long way to have humility and the past, you know, success is down to the team to get to work. I think that is part of the leadership style is really elevating your team is part of my part of how I do. I’m honest with them. I’m not going to sugarcoat it if things are bad, but I’m also going to give them praise in the mountains and days are great. I think that goes a long way. I think people don’t leave companies because of the company, because of bad leadership. And my leadership really is a lot of humility and a lot of, you know, humbleness and, respect and gratitude. And those are big words. And a lot of folks may not know who I am, but those that probably do know me, we understand that I’m very truthful in the words that I choose, and I choose them wisely because it means a lot because you’re only as good as your actions and who you are. So like, I could sit here and tell you one story, and if I go out there, if people know you’re full of crap, that’s not who you are. Yeah. And I think that’s also why, on a personal level, I’ve made so many great friends and so many great connections because I am who I am. I mean, I’m probably your most atypical IT leader you might come across. I mean. 

Ashish Tulsian

I see that. I don’t see a lot of tattooed leaders roaming around the block.

Phil Crawford

And the tattoos are only part of it. Like the other side of it is just that I’m not afraid to be who I am, and I’m not afraid to, you know, speak my mind. But I’m also really big about relationships. So the Hardees side and the Carl’s side we’ve done an amazing job is because I’ve got relationships with these owners and these franchisees and these people on a human level, and they get so often missed in business because we’re all about the bottom line, we forget about people, and that’s what gets us here.

Ashish Tulsian

At The end of the day, we are like, we all are doing business with people.

Phil Crawford

We are people, people we are in the people business call it what it is. You may not think that technology is affecting people because you don’t see somebody, but you’re using a device in in in an indirect way affecting people’s lives. So that’s that’s kind of who I am, my leadership style. It’s and again I have fun like we just got back from a Carl’s Junior’s trade show, which is our annual convention and I’ll send you pictures. Literally, our booth has squeezable chickens, it squawk and squishy toys. We’re doing chicken tosses. We had cocktails, we had beers. We were in funky chicken hats and funky chicken shirts, you know, because we got to have fun and we’re going to be true to our characters. And that’s just who we are. And some people love it or hate it, but most people feel like it’s comfortable, it’s approachable, because I think technology can be scary to some because we can see they’re an acronym. We can talk about radical new things that are emerging. People get turned off. We just can’t do that to people.

Ashish Tulsian

There’s a lot of technology happening in the restaurant world, especially last couple of years. There is. And you know, a lot of random technology is also trying to find its use cases. It’s actually reverse. Yes. You know, I see so many products and so many concepts trying to find the problem that they are solving. How are you looking at all this euphoria around tech?

Phil Crawford

So so I said it the other day and I’ll say it again, not every technology deserves to be in the restaurant. Don’t go away from your ethos of who you are. Carl’s is 80 years old Hardees is six years old. We know who we are. We know our identity. Technology should be a complement to the business, not a detriment it should, and it should reduce friction and add a frictionless to it. So when it comes to us, we look at the guest experience first and foremost. Can it help the guest experience through operations efficiency, through onboarding, efficiency, through drive through efficiency, then yes, maybe it gives the proof of concept and moves on. If it doesn’t answer the core questions, then it’s not for us. There’s some amazing tech coming out that like we’re experimenting with, you know, large model, large modeling on generative A.I., tons of different stuff. We have AI drive thrus now in 100 plus restaurants because it fits what we need to get done, some back end, some front end. Other technologies we’ve looked at that are amazing. I love to go play. I’d love to have an entire fully automated kitchen potentially. It’s just not who we are. I’d love to have technology that scans your product as it’s being built, so it gets to the final person it says it has no ketchup on that. But it’s not who we are like, we’re made fresh. We have quality control, texture across the way. So that’s the fine line with us is technology’s great. technology needs to complement and help the business. And that’s kind of what we look at moving forward. And we also have radical ideas or things that we’ve tried in restaurants that we pulled them out. It’s okay. You’ve got to try and just.

Ashish Tulsian

What are the crazy like, give me give me a few crazy tech that you tried.

Phil Crawford

we’ve tried. We’ve tried a couple of different things. I won’t name specific companies, but we’ve tried things in QSR right through curbside QR technology. They weren’t right. They were just timing for the business was wrong. We tried stuff back at Shake Shack. Right. That once again might might change the way guests interact with you at the cashier stations didn’t work. We tried stuff at Yard House through early apps where you can check music. You know, someone’s already got an app for that, sorry privacy issue. So we’ve done different things throughout their career that it’s okay. You take a step back and like great idea, good concept, right idea wrong timing.

Ashish Tulsian

So what about AI replacing people? 

Phil Crawford

To depend on AI, So this is this is a part that’s crazy. AI is such a large nomenclature word. It drives me nuts. Yeah. Like I think AI in certain aspects does. Like we talk about generative AI with regards to guest feedback engines, how many times you’ve been on an IVR phone call or on an app and it prompts you all these questions. If we can use algorithms with AI to make them smarter, to help the guests, sure, there’s an actual benefit to the business, but also the guest itself. You look at AI in the restaurants.

Ashish Tulsian

That you mean like the IVR can go can go adaptive?

Phil Crawford

Exactly. 100% adaptive. You’re also no different than like the drive thru. Right. The technology the drive through. It’s the consistency of the upsell, the consistency of the messaging, not taking away people’s jobs. I am helping them make their jobs be more efficient. I’m taking away the mundane task of saying welcome to Carl’s, welcome to Hardees. May I take your order like it gets mundane, say that 250 times a day. Kind of like I don’t want to say anymore. Or do you want a prompt for a Coke or do you want prompt for a large like these kind of tasks that are done help the business efficiently, also help the employees. Because look at the the guest service, the scores that go up and look at the drive thru service services scores go up and the consumer scores go up as well as the employee scores. Right. There’s different technologies that we’re implementing on the back end that are going to help take away some of the mundane tasks from analytics. If we can see patterns in inventory, recognize them and build, you know, large language, large, large modeling platforms that can actually evolve and so forth, we will, if we’re going to implement ideas like chatGPT or operators can say, Hey, show me last Tuesday sales, but throw in a weather component of rain minus every hamburger we sold because it was this LTO give me the output. There’s benefits there. I think it’ll continue to impact our life. Now, AI is not new. It has been around for a while.

Ashish Tulsian

Yeah.

Phil Crawford

It’s just now getting face time as we keep saying it, because it’s being introduced to different parts of businesses in different industries in a variety, different ways. I think that it’ll continue to evolve because I think the population is continuing to age and people are growing up with those devices in their hand and that’s what they expect and they’re going to interact that way moving forward. And we better be competitive with that nature and understand that’s coming or we’re going to be left in the dark ages, quite frankly.

Ashish Tulsian

How much pressure is there on tech to innovate, the tech to innovate?

Phil Crawford

I used to Hope none, but innovate or die, right? You have to innovate. You have to be changing and evolving. When’s the last time you saw a first generation iPod? right. You innovate or you die. You change. Like remember the Microsoft Zune? They were the first generation of, you remember Zune? The first generation of their iPod.

Ashish Tulsian

Yeah exactly, The point that nobody you know, most of the people don’t even know that.

Phil Crawford

I know that’s how old I am, right? So like, you have to evolve. So there’s a lot of innovation, there’s a lot of trajectory and things you do. You’ve got to have a three year plan. You’ve got to have a strategy moving forward because if you’re not doing it in the next six months, you know your competition is right in some facet. You have to keep pushing the envelope forward because that’s what the guest experience want. But also the business needs to evolve. I mean, there’s been a ton of Harvard Business case reviews that say story after story after story of companies who don’t evolve and innovate. It’s got to be part of your DNA. It’s got to be part of your organizational mission, cultural values, period.

Ashish Tulsian

But, you know, I see this in the restaurant tech. There are two worlds almost right now, which is one is like this this whole wave of New Age restaurant tech of all types and kinds. And then there’s this. The old, you know, bunkers of legacy tech still relevant to some extent. And then in between, I find leaders who I will not really blame the age. I think it’s about the mindset. You know, you of course, large enterprises, you know, high stakes, you need stable leaders. So, yeah, but this I see the gap has gone really crazy because when I see even legacy people talking about cloud, the cloud strategy is also very legacy. The cloud thinking is also, you know, quite, quite, you know, primitive. And and on the other side, I see the new age companies who are spinning solutions on their toes and their robustness is nothing that they’re not reliable. They don’t really, you know, stand the test of scale if you know. Where do you like as a as a CTO, as a CIO, as a as a technologist, how are you bridging this gap? Are you taking a bet, bet on the new age ones, dragging them, you know, to the stability? Or are you still siding with legacy because nobody ever tried to buy an IBM?

Phil Crawford

I think the first approach I think you’re bringing the new into the old, not the old, into the new. So you might take a new cloud SaaS solution, right? A snowflake, for instance. And you’re going to figure a way to adopt it and you’re going to get rid of your Microsoft SQL Server back end and. It’s going to be difficult. It’s okay. Because you know, that sort of industry has got to go. You know that’s where the world is going, if you don’t have that creative mindset moving forward, you’re going to die, period. Like, it’s great. You can’t go wrong with Big Blue. It’s a safe bet, right? I don’t do safe bets all the time. It’s okay. I I’ll gladly put it on there on the platform to move forward because you need to. And in a lot of these emerging companies, What if Google never got a chance? What if Facebook never got a chance? It’s the same kind of monitors like certain systems can be evolved to move forward with us. And that’s how you get them to move forward as you bring them along the journey and you teach them as a partner, not as a vendor, of how the business and they can they can benefit. So one of our strategies internally is all of our partners. They’re not vendors. We try as much as possible, have QBRs and strategy meetings and long term planning so we can bring them on the journey and so they can understand where they’re going and how pinnacles and parallels are in our path. Because if they’re successful, we’re successful. That’s how you bring them in, right? Period. Sure. A lot of startups, they don’t have all the wisdom. They never have the knowledge. They’ve got a cool idea, but they’re lacking some core fundamentals. If you can help them establish and build those core fundamentals while exercising and building your own, it’s a win win scenario, right? That’s kind of the mindset, like best of breed, new ideas, new ideas, thought processes. You have to. If you don’t, I think you’re going to get stuck with the old legacy POS right? Or the old legacy data center. That’s it’s a safe bet. It’s not going down because backed by Google. But guess what? Like the cloud is so much easier to replicate. It’s so much quicker. I can spin things up on a dime. Remember, when virtualization came out like it was a greatest thing in the world. Like, yeah, you had to go buy a server farm. I can buy one powerful device and it can run as hundreds and hundreds of VMs, obeying the DR like it’s this logical.

Ashish Tulsian

Combined instance on a server.

Phil Crawford

Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, that’s kind of that’s kind of our our philosophy and kind of how I think of emerging tech. Again, not every tech’s going to be here. You got to place your bets and there’s been bets you place that have not made it. They’ve gone away, but it’s okay, right? You kind of learn over time which ones you can kind of foster because you had the discussions early on the partnership moving forward.

Ashish Tulsian

How’s the discussion or how has the conversation changed over the last three years with industry peers? I see you do a lot of work with, you know, industry peers at RTN you know, a lot of forums, But how is that? What do you see is a change in the conversation the last couple of years, especially over the years?

Phil Crawford

I think, you know, birds of a feather flock together. I think there’s a lot of us that still think that same way. And you kind of go in those groups. I think you’re seeing a little bit of a disbandment between the old generation, myself and those that are still around and those that aren’t really taking the noose to it kind of just kind of doing best of breed and not having a leadership kind of point a safer role. I think a lot of conversations are talking about buzzwords and not so much the understanding of the word, which is kind of scary, but it’s also everybody kind of goes after the moniker of the big 800 pound gorillas. I want to be like them, I want to be like them, you know. You do not always have to be like that. it’s okay. Be your own, be your own animal, be your own beast and so forth. A lot of great thought leaders in the industry that we have as part of the RTN and that whole board really has the same philosophies of like minded, like sharing with the idea that we can all agree to disagree, or we can agree to agree. And that really is helpful. And as we grow because we’re all sharing content, we’re all sharing ideas and thought processes like I share, I share competitive sets with my competitors all the time. If you have it tomorrow, I’m going to have it next day or vice versa. I’m not selling the secret sauce. I’m like, I’m not sure property we’re talking about where the industry as a whole can move together, not just an individual brand. And I think that’s an important part of the culture that we’ve built internally. As you know, as a restaurant executive, you know, not a technology executive, I mean, a restaurant executive, because I’m interfacing with CMO’s and CDOs and COOs and CEO and chief digital officers, like it’s completely now anonymous across the board because they’re so hyper interconnected. It’s crazy. There’s no longer these pillars and silos because there’s so many different ideas and topics across boundaries now.

Ashish Tulsian

Absolutely. That either the entire industry elevates or the entire industry suffers. And especially, I think, the evolution of tech. You know, from our from our perspective, what I see across the world, I think, you know, I actually see US, for example, like actually quite behind what rest of the world is doing way behind. Yeah. It just surprises us.

Phil Crawford

Yeah, I think it surprises those that have never traveled internationally. Like the years of Godiva traveling internationally opened my eyes to see how the world is. That is probably when I said the international experience earlier, I never had the privilege to travel to Japan or Dubai. Right. Or to Mumbai or to London, like or to Turkey and see all the different cultures are out there. But just to realize how much more advanced civilization is when once you get to this part of the world, but more radically how culture is different. But people are the same. People really aren’t generally nice to one another and they just want the best of Maybe there’s the optimist in me. It could be wrong and maybe it is. But technology in other countries is far superior than It is here. It’s like I’m going to China or Japan. And we think like, Hey, you pay  with your phone, are you kidding me? Like, they’ve got that for a decade, dude. Like kids are walking around with WeChat and paying for everything on a device, like are using biometrics and pay. It’s it’s mind blowing.

Ashish Tulsian

I can move around India without a penny in my pocket.

Phil Crawford

On one app.

Ashish Tulsian

App. Without. Without a credit card. Yeah, Without a credit card issued to my name. It’s crazy, right? Right. And I can I can, I can transact. I can do, like, any amount day in, day out, from a street vendor to a large corporation. It’s it’s just it’s just amazing.

Phil Crawford

It’s a it’s a unified platform. And that’s exactly where I think the United States is going next. I think a unified payments platform, like in a unified ecosystem in general, I can’t think of that movie wherever it is a social score kind of thing. It’s a crazy movie, Science fiction actually. Look it up. That’s where we’re going. We’ll get caught up. It’s okay. But they’re always going to be ahead. We talk about, you know, I think in a political way, other countries are leading ahead because they are like, we should learn from them and learn to adapt what they can do here in the States. And some companies are doing it here domestically. There’s my again, my buddy, the now is the head of IT, the CFO is a great friend like they’re doing stuff radically with technology and robots and stores like but overseas have been there for years.

Ashish Tulsian

So yeah I think I think I also feel that a lot of developing world is way ahead in tech because they needed it. Yeah, I think somewhere, you know in the U.S. and I see that in the UK as well you know probably the need did not really arise that fast. I think life was good and set and probably the systems and processes took care of what technology should have.

Phil Crawford

Yeah, I think here we are always just naturally slow to adopt because we’re more pessimistic. Might be the right way to say it. We’re not as trustworthy. It kind of my idea. Maybe we’re not forced upon it in a way because we don’t like to change, I think is a part of it.

Ashish Tulsian

I think nobody likes to change. I think it’s really about, you know, I see this I see this very clear pattern, you know, countries where process like was the first thing like process above people. Yeah, they eventually became slower in adopting technology because nobody likes change now and things are going fine like you’re on fixed what is not broken. Till the time it is broken beyond repair and countries where they were not pro-process and most of the developing nations. Yeah. And for them technology was the only way. Technology was the way to control people from doing stupid shit just from, from being wrong. And they were more, you know, they wanted efficiency and they kind of, you know, evolved much faster.

Phil Crawford

They forced their hand.

Ashish Tulsian

Yeah, that’s what I see. I see that in India. I see that. And you know, so many parts of the world.

Phil Crawford

You’re right. It’s again, it’s also, you know, name your political stance. It’s the way our societies are built in different parts of the country, or the world. Excuse me. It’s just how they are out there. There’s no wrong or right answer there. I think that if you look through the technology lens of it, there’s been a lot of benefits coming out of the way Those governments have put things in place for the benefit of society. Right. There’s things you’ve done in the states that have been radically different around the world and then vice versa. As long as we can share and adopt those and adapt those everybody wins.

Ashish Tulsian

My last question to you for

Phil Crawford

Last question already? Just kidding.

Ashish Tulsian

I forgot my question.

Phil Crawford

Ah, I stumped you. What’s in the drink? What’s in there?

Ashish Tulsian

Actually, that’s water.

Phil Crawford

It’s water.

Ashish Tulsian

I was about to ask you.

Phil Crawford

Where do I see myself in five years?

Ashish Tulsian

You know, that’s a question.

Phil Crawford

You want a funny one? Yeah. You know, I’m actually going to school right now.

Ashish Tulsian

really? Yeah. Yeah, That’s a question I want. Where do you see yourself five years from now?

Phil Crawford

So it’s a great question. And here’s why. So I alluded to earlier and again, I’m not trying to tap my own horn, That I love to continually educate I’m a big guy that loves to read. I’m a big podcast guy. I’m a big inspirational book guy. I actually am in school and I went back to Harvard, which is crazy to do that full time while I’m working full time. So I like I literally have class on Monday nights and Thursday nights virtual and go back and my five years I would love to be a CEO of an organization. I think it’s awesome. I think people gravitate to what Steve Jobs said, right? They all think different campaign like those that think outside the box. And I kind of don’t fit your moniker of what a CEO would be, but I think personally like that’s my driving goal. Like you have to set an aspiration bar super high in this industry in some facet because I think that I can really move a company forward in a variety of ways just from my learnings in the years I’ve been doing it. I would love a challenge to take the bull by the horns and go with it, and technology only gets you so far. I think having being that next level, if running an entire org end to end every facet would be my eventual goal.

Ashish Tulsian

I think that’s that’s beautiful because I mean world sees that you know eventually organizations are taken over by finance guys the guys who run money right. Or you know and the way technology is taking over the world. I would love to see technology guys taking over the companies next instead of the finance guys alone.

Phil Crawford

You’re here. I’m with you. And there’s a couple of technologists in our space that have moved up, you know, into CEOs. Yeah. There’s a there’s a couple I mean, obviously.

Ashish Tulsian

Like who are who are the tech guys who are like CIOs and the.

Phil Crawford

Like Sharif that runs bricks right. Or Stacy that now runs Jenny’s I mean you’re talking Fridays and Wingstop are great great peers and mentors like the opportunities out there and they’re doing amazing things because they bring a completely different lens like you. But you see operations and finance guys or gals. Either way. But the world is moving to your device in your pocket. The world is becoming more connected. Yeah, I think having a technology lens in a CEO leadership role is going to become a unique, distinct, distinctive advantage for those that give an opportunity to guys like me. That might just be that technology weirdo in the corner, but I’m actually not. I actually has like radical ideas and thoughts and processes and policies and procedures that I think can move brands forward. That’s my goal.

Ashish Tulsian

That’s perfect. Then I’m, you know, all the best, not only for your own goal. I think that is something that I believe will happen in the world anyway, Like not for technology to truly take over the world. Yes, you know, the CEOs have to be technology first. They don’t need to be they don’t need to understand technology. They have to think technology first.

Phil Crawford

That is a great that’s a great distinction. I think so many people think they have to understand it. They have to understand the importance of it. I mean, understand the bits and bytes as they say. They don’t know where the relevancy is, where it is in day to day part of our lives.

Ashish Tulsian

Phil, it was absolute pleasure talking.

Phil Crawford

My Pleasure to be here. Thank you.

Ashish Tulsian

And congratulations on a great journey.

Phil Crawford

Thank you. I many more to come. We’ll do it here in five years. And see where we are at.

Ashish Tulsian

100%.

Phil Crawford

Awesome. I’ll be here. Thank you.