Ashish Tulsian: Hi. Welcome to the Restrocast. Today, my guest is Panchali Mahendra. She’s the president of Atelier House Hospitality. One of the most prestigious restaurant groups in the region. I enjoyed my conversation with Panchali because her story is, is quite fascinating. A girl from state of Uttar Pradesh in India, a self-proclaimed tomboy basketball player, turned to hospitality calls Taj and Oberoi as as her finishing schools and went on to start a restaurant group in the city of Dubai, which already has a michelin star under her belt and a lot of other lot, many restaurants which are genuine contenders. What I heard from Panchali quite continuously through her career is that she has really grabbed the opportunities and made the most out of them. I saw someone who did not allow her gender to come in the way of her career. In the hospitality industry, where the ratio of the women are less, which is acknowledged given the harsh environment, long hours, graveyard shifts. She has not only made her mark, but she has earned the respect of the entire industry. I enjoyed this conversation. I’m sure you will. Welcome to Restrocast. Panchali, welcome to Restrocast.

Panchali: Thank you. Thank you so much. Oh, my pleasure.

Ashish Tulsian:
You know, we have been hearing a lot about all the good work that you’re doing, the Michelin Star series of awards. You know, new markets, new restaurants. But before we dive into all of that, I would like to know where it all started. And I have a thesis. My thesis is that nobody gets into the restaurant industry by plan. Most of the people just fall into it by chance. So I want to know if that is true in your case or not and and where it all started and how did you follow it?

Panchali:
Absolutely. I think you are. You’re pretty apt on that. I didn’t fall into it. I think I was literally pushed into it and this all started in, I think, 2003 after my graduation, after my class 12. I used to play basketball for India. I was a state level player. I started representing India.

Ashish Tulsian: Oh, wow.

Panchali: Yeah and that’s what I wanted to do. And I had all these dreams of to play for WNBA one day and, you know, keep playing for India. But of course, like many other dreams, I was shown the reality and I was told that, you know, basketball for women in India doesn’t have a future. So for passion and for fun, it is great. But as a vocation to make some money, it is not going to go too far away.

Ashish Tulsian: Can I make a confession? I don’t even know that India has a basketball team.

Panchali: Yes, it does. And it’s very I must tell you, it is a whole process because you have players who start playing at the age of 14, 15. It’s called the Youth Nationals that you to play for first, then you play for district, then you play the city level, then you play the state. That’s the national level. Then you have a camp for the national. So the teams there are, you know, 11 players from every state. And then you have clubs like the DLWs, the Locomotive Works and the railways and the other clubs like are the cricket, you know, as a profession. But and then they choose the top probably 18, 20 players. They go to a camp and India at that time could I think they would qualifying for ABC that’s the Asian basketball championship that used to happen in China. So that is a highest that India back in the days could play internationally but now I’m sure that the women are killing it and basketball is becoming huge.

Ashish Tulsian: I really I really I really hope so. Because, you know, there’s I mean, I think I think in India, apart from cricket, nothing else makes noise.

Panchali: I think tennis, I would say lawn tennis. Yeah.

Ashish Tulsian: Team sports. Yes.

Panchali: Team sports, no, not much. And it’s such a shame that I always think that when we watch it, Olympics and even commonwealths, such a, that’s such a big one of the now the highest populated country in the world. And, you know, it’s the resources, what is happening. But but, but I understand being a part of it, I can’t speak much on it, what goes internally, but I just for people are smarter now and they can invest a lot more money in players and in sports to bring that visibility internationally. As a player, I just remember one thing that you know, we would not even get the basic food, the nutrition that is available for a national level player. You’re playing for eight nine hours a day. Imagine that intensity and your you know, you’re working out and you’re playing and the kind of food that you would get, diluted daal. That’s it. So that kind of nutritional value goes in. How do you keep up with international standards and stamina? This is as basic as that. But so that’s what I was doing.

Ashish Tulsian: And what what part of India was that?

Panchali: I was in Uttar Pradesh, I was in U.P., Lucknow. My parents moved to Lucknow in ‘99 and I was in a school called La Martiniere. And what an amazing school always pushed women to do extracurricular activities. We had our own basketball team, we had our own swimming team, debate team.

Ashish Tulsian: I think Lucknow is also, it’s own world. It’s not it it’s not fully you know U.P. in itself.

Panchali: Lucknow is is an old world charm that you know it is I think still inhabited by poets and dreamers and foodies. It is one of the most beautiful cities. I think when you move there ‘99 talking and thinking about Lucknow, the people were had so much nuances of sophistication in their speech the Urdu that they spoke and what a place the awadhi cuisine to establish there but even now it’s so all it has that old school charm to it and people are still laid back they’re still very lazy.

Ashish Tulsian: No I am a Delhi born and raised. I’m a full Delhi boy and I used to think and I, you know, traveled quite a lot in India. And I used to believe that rather I used to fight for that, that Delhi has the best food, the best use of spices, the way it’s done, etc.. A know, but no place in India even comes close. And then one day, not like after, after I think at the age of 28, probably, I went to Lucknow and I tried chaat there and I was like, okay, okay, Delhi has a, Delhi has a contender, somebody is beating it. And very, very well.

Panchali: Yeah, no, Lucknow, it has the kind of the Awadhi cuisine, like I said, the kabobs and the biriyanis and the chaats and even the chai just.

Ashish Tulsian: Sharma ji tea stall is quite popular.

Panchali: Sharma ji’s tea stall and his what does he give the maskha bread? .

Ashish Tulsian: Bun Maskha.

Panchali: Bun Maskha. So you have to stand there. And I must tell you, I went a couple of years back, the first time, actually like four years back, I like to believe. And my mom said, we’re going to this place to have Bun Maskha and chai. And I said let’s go let’s do it. And we go there and this little tiny stall with, you know, those bar stools that you have to stand. There’s nothing to sit. It’s by the corner near a sewage area. And there were a couple of people, I don’t know what they were smoking and I can’t say it on the podcast, but it smelled really nice. And and then they were enjoying the refreshments of the Bun Maskha. And then you have this side of Lucknow and there are Mercedes cars parked up there. The people in the rickshaw standing there, it’s it’s just was this close, like nobody cares.

Ashish Tulsian: I think it’s a leveler.

Panchali: It’s like a Bu Qtair here in Dubai, you know, the South Indian place that does fried fish and that is what these places in. But in Lucknow, anywhere else, it reminds you of it brings people of every stature together. But talking about Lucknow, I guess I still like to believe it is probably better than Delhi. People from Delhi might not like that. But then, you know, there’s so many cities in India. I was I grew up in Hyderabad that, you know, it’s a little bit in Bihar and I’m from I’m sorry, I am from Rajasthan I’m I’m Rajput so you know grew up in Delhi, worked in Bombay, worked in Bangalore. So I have had the opportunity to dine in and dined at like all the root level places, the local places that that defines a place. So I think India is amazing all over.

Ashish Tulsian: Plus one to that, 100%. So then what happened to you that basketball was.

Panchali: Then basketball wasn’t happening. And thank God for my father. You know what happened? He I think he started seeing me being a little tomboyish. And then one day he was he came in my room and, you know, we had those bean bags back in the days and I was sitting there with my legs apart and not very womanly and not very feminine. And I think he had a concern and he went and told my mother that I think our daughter is turning very manly, very tomboyish. And, you know, she has cut her hair short. She is playing in the sun and she’s very rough on the edges. I don’t think basketball is for her. I think she should go to a finishing school. But that was a joke. So we used to make fun of it. Like you want me to go to finishing school, what era are you living in? And then somebody in my family said, You know, why don’t you think of sending her to a hospitality? I wanted to study in, we’re from Delhi so you would know St Stephen’s and I even got through through my sports quota because at the age of 17 I had played like four nationals and I wanted to do English honors and play basketball and chill. And that was my, my, my, my, my agenda in life. But I think somebody said, do a vocational thing, do something that, you know, you had more specific specified. And they said, send her in hospitality. She’s like a people’s person, she’s bubbly, she’s cheerful. And they’ll also be like, you know, they’ll polish her up and teach her some manners and etiquette.

Ashish Tulsian: Wow that finishing school thing that was, yeah.

Panchali: And I didn’t understand what is this hospitality school? But then, you know, when I saw the brochures of all these fancy schools, like IHM Aurangabad, where I went to study from the Taj Group of hotels or the Manipal one, I said, wow, these kids are really having fun. And it’s very glamorous because you get to wear all these nice uniforms and be in front of in big hotels, five star hotels and meet all these celebrities. So what a glamorous life I have. I must join. I’m done. I was sold out by the the brochure that I saw. IHM Aurangabad and that’s what I told my father. Yeah, you’re right. Let’s go, let’s go study and this glamorous looking hotel school.

Ashish Tulsian: So no understanding of food, hospitality. I mean, as in.

Panchali: Food, yes. I knew what good food was. I’ve been fed so well.

Ashish Tulsian: No, no. I mean, I mean, from a professional perspective.

Panchali: Zero. Nothing. It was just I think it was just I think hospitality 20 years back was coming up and it was destined for me. It was decided, I think, primarily by my father. And he was like, yeah, this looks good. It’s Aurangabad. And you know what happened? I think he he liked the fact about Aurangabad being a little town in a small village in Maharashtra. And he said, You know why am I going to send her to Bombay or Delhi or, you know, outside the country for her to get more spoilt perhaps. So he said, I’ll send her to a small little village in a hotel school. You know what is going to go wrong? Until he realized when I graduated, I’d become like a mafia.

Ashish Tulsian: Oh, I want to know more about that.

Panchali: We’re doing all the naughty things. I can’t say them on on online.

Ashish Tulsian: So, you were the hostel Mafia.

Panchali: We were the hostel mafia. We were having fun. Like, you know, we studied, but we were having a lot of fun. I mean, listen, you are being taught about alcohol and we’re doing cocktail trials. So, you know, and you’re eating all kinds of stuff. So it was fun. It was just we, we had a great time. He thought it was going to be very serious, but we knew how to have fun.

Ashish Tulsian: So what is this? Is hotel management or.

Panchali: So you know, in India, you have many other hotel schools. Some are run by the government and then the private sector. You have certain schools like the one that I graduated from, and I like to believe it was India’s number one university for hospitality. It was affiliated with the Taj Group of hotels, and they primarily ran it and and it had a collaboration, affiliation with the University of Huddersfield. So you’ve got a degree from Yorkshire and your honors. And that is where it was, you know, in system with acting at that point of time. And then you had the ITC group who had their own hotel school, Berkshire and Manipal. And I think in the graduate level these were the top schools. And then of course, the government had IHMs which were in Delhi, Pusa, in Bangalore and Bombay everywhere, all across the country, so people could sit for a common exam for that, which I also did. According to your rank, you can choose it, or you could go to any of the private schools. I liked the brochure of IHM Aurangabad the best. There were good looking boys and girls so I was like, my choice is clear and straight.

Ashish Tulsian: That’s nice. That’s nice. Nice of you to put that. So was it like, was the degree regular hotel management or was it like in the culinary side or like.

Panchali: So it had, there were two aspects to it. One was the culinary and the other one is hospitality management. So what you do is you have you get a B.A. Honors in hospitality management in which you have your, of course, studying about food and science. But what you’re studying is also about the commerce, the accounting, you know, accommodations management, revenue management strategy, human resources. So every aspect from the Nonoperating side of it, which kind of encompasses around is what you would be studying in sales and marketing. So it was a very strategy driven course. So you’re basically doing a management but management course, but a lot more concentration on the hospitality sector and also aviation. So it was not just because hospitality is not just, you know, confined to hotels and restaurants, more so wherever it can be utilized.

Ashish Tulsian: And then where did you go from there?

Panchali: So I studied there. And as luck would have it, like I said, I was enjoying I got a gold medal. So I came first in my class and from the University of Huddersfield and from IHM Aurangabad. So I topped in UK and India and that was great. So my parents were happy then they were like fine we forgive you for the three years what you said.

Ashish Tulsian: So Now, you’re finished and finished well.

Panchali: Well, and I finished and I finished well. And then from there I was fortunate enough to get through the Oberoi Hotel School, which is called OCLD, to do their post graduation certification. So I’m a postgraduate in hospitality again. I did my two years of master’s from the Oberoi Hotel School. That’s a scholarship program. The for the guest service management, again, a management course. They selected 20 people, I think, across Asia and in Middle East and they pay you to study. They take care of you. And it once you graduate from there, you straight become a manager. So unfortunately, you don’t have to go to the bottom rung though even though during a training time you have you have to get your hands dirty but you’re a direct.

Ashish Tulsian: Why do you say that unfortunately.

Panchali: I mean, you know, I think people who have spent a lot more quality time a lot not doing internships for one one month getting your hands dirty. You know practical knowledge not theoretical, is always true knowledge. I like to believe. So I think people who have who until unless you know you don’t clean a toilet, you will never know how dirty or clean it was. I think one of my interviews, I said something and somebody probably misunderstood it, but it was like, Dirty hands are a sign of clean money and clean business. So unfortunately, I wish for us to not to have the chip on the shoulder and be like, Oh, I’m a manager today at the age of 22 of a big hotel. It was important for, I think for a lot of people to understand that I wish we were thrown at the deep end a lot more for a longer time to understand like how it is to be a waiter and how it is to be a supervisor.

Ashish Tulsian: Your entitlement will never get better of you.

Panchali: But then, yes, we do understand that we worked hard and studied hard and competed with, you know, 100,000 people to get that 20 seats. So that ways we were fortunate enough. But having said that, after that, my posting was one of the biggest posting in the country. I was sent as an assistant F&B manager to the Oberoi, Mumbai, Nariman point. 800 room property and FNB.

Ashish Tulsian: This is what year?

Panchali: This is now. Now we’re talking about 2008. So I’ve graduated I’ve done my masters 2003. I enter the scene three years of graduation, two years of post-graduation 2008. I am now working at the Oberoi as an assistant F&B manager. My first day, there are 96 people were reporting so-called reporting. And then you’ve to understand that in Bombay, it works on union. You have 55-60 year old men and women, who are your supervisors were reporting to you. And they’ve been working for 30, 40 years in the same restaurant, the same hotel, and you’re just standing there, and this is very surreal. You cannot and they’re all well spoken. I still remember this woman. Her name was Dolly. She was the aunt of John Abraham, who was an actor. And that was so funny. And that we’ll keep for another day. But they were all from good families and, you know, they just been working because they loved and they’re very elderly people who are reporting. And you’re standing there as a 20. I was 22-23, and I was their manager and massive property.

Ashish Tulsian: Too intimidating.

Panchali: And so they know what to do with you. You don’t know what to do with them. And your day when you’re like listen, don’t be a model and stand at the entrance of the reception and do nothing. You will be expecting around 1200-1400 people coming for breakfast and the Asians come very early in the hotel. So your job as a manager is to tuck your sari up and stand behind and go clean the spoons and glasses because, you know, the two things that are always there’s never enough.

Ashish Tulsian: Is what, are you being ragged or?

Panchali: No, no, I understood what they meant because, see, these people knew how to handle thousands of people every day from morning to night. That was it’s the biggest and the most busiest restaurant called Frangipani.

Ashish Tulsian: They were basically just saying that now you’re the manager please get out of the way.

Panchali: Yeah, because what are you going to do? You can’t teach them anything. All you can do is stand at the reception and be like good morning, good night. And I think that’s a very wasted human manpower. So I think what I could be of any help to them instead of just shining my smile and my my face is to use spoons and glasses, but always they always had shortage at any restaurant, all at them cutlery and glassware and plates are the thing. So I was helping them out, just cleaning glasses every day for two, 3 hours and and I said, I, you know, I didn’t mind because I thought this is what I talked about like dirty hands. So sometimes to understand and to become part of the system, you have to be in the system you to become a part of it. A lot of people have put their hands up, I’m not going to do this menial job. Yeah, but I think one thing I learned from my parents from the beginning and the industry taught me is dignity of labor and that hotel and that restaurant. And my time there really humbled me because nobody cared where you were from, what you did, what gold medal, silver, you know, you know, bronze medal nobody cared.

Ashish Tulsian: I think, Oberoi as a as a as an institution is also, you know, quite large and overpowering, you know, for an individual to be flaunting their gold medal. No?

Panchali: Well, it is. But, you know.

Ashish Tulsian: I mean I mean, in a good way. I mean, it’s like an institution that like the excellence is like.

Panchali: I didn’t have it behind on my wall in my office and know I’m still proud of it more than many other things. Though my gold medal was from the Taj Hotel School. Oberoi didn’t care. And I mean, we all passed out there with distinctions and everything, but I know, like I said, nobody cared about my past and nobody cared about my what am I doing? They said, you just do your work. You come here and you can’t fight with the union. There’s not too many questions. 4:00 came people who were cleaning their spoons would leave everything like that and go out. It was a huge learning experience. And of course, the kind of clientele you’re standing there and you know, suddenly you have the Ambanis walking in. And I at some point I had Mr. Anil Ambani’s number on my phone because every Sunday he would come with his family with the kids who are grown up right now to frangipani and dine there and you know like Panchali keep my table ready here, Keep my table ready. So you’re also dealing with all of you know, you’re just just baffled and overwhelmed with everything, A, with the team and second, with the kind of people coming in dining every day. So what a great experience. I think it was.

Ashish Tulsian: Absolutely.

Panchali: You know, today when people see me in the office sitting and what would, you know? And then I say, you don’t understand that I come from operations. You know, I have done that. I didn’t like it. That’s why I left Ops. So I can now delegate work. But those were fun times and we’d been there, done it all.

Ashish Tulsian:No, I am sure.

Panchali: Worked 18 hours a day.

Ashish Tulsian: And I think I think the clientele that you’re talking about, you know, serving them, I think is also like is the is the epitome of, you know, what what you know.

Panchali: Service.

Ashish Tulsian: Service with no, you know, you can’t err, there’s no way.

Panchali: Exactly. And you can’t say no. I mean, we were taught that, you know, we had this whole Ritz-Carlton thing saying that A we’re ladies and gentlemen serving ladies and gentlemen. So first keep that like that, that finesse and that sophistication always along with you. And second guest is God, Atithi devo bhava that’s as an Indian that’s our first thing that guest is God, you can’t say no, he’s always right and that’s what I’m old school I grew up with that that go beyond the expectations and do everything before they even ask for it. It’s already there.

Ashish Tulsian: In December of ‘19 end, we signed as Posist. We signed Vapiano US.

Panchali: OK.

Ashish Tulsian: March 2020. Okay, north Carolina and Chicago were supposed to go live.

Panchali: Okay. Ouch.

Ashish Tulsian: And Vapiano U.S. went bankrupt, changed hands all the stores like some of those stores shut down and you know and then the new owners came by the time you know we also lost teams, so so we we have like that yeah So when when I was talking to Anish in December, he said, oh, wow, you got Vapiano. This is so cool. You know, it’s an unresolved issue. In April of ‘20, I called him. The issue remains unresolved for me now so Vapiano didn’t happen.

Panchali: You know, I mean, at that time, I’m talking about 2010. Those are a great brands. For them to be visionaries to come and bring in your to take the chance to bring an LPQ.

Ashish Tulsian: Yeah, 100%.

Panchali: And and I remember a lot of people couldn’t understand even the Tartars like the open the Tartines that we.

Ashish Tulsian: I think it was ahead of its time because if if you see India now right now I think it’s this is a good time there’s a last couple of years.

Panchali: I mean look at what is happening in India. This is such a great time to be like I think the last two years, the whole scene, the F&B.

Ashish Tulsian: It has split.

Panchali: Picked up.

Ashish Tulsian: Experimental stuff, high quality stuff. And I think that that that comes a lot at the back of the the current demographic, the population, the age the, you know.

Panchali: And COVID, people traveled, people.

Ashish Tulsian: Traveled and also I think I think people are also growing up on Internet. See my my.

Panchali: People were eating because one thing one thing I think everybody realized is there’s nothing more and nothing less than food and food started combining. People were cooking at home. And I think once the COVID was lifted, people started understanding the experiential dining and they wanted to then put money in that whole let’s live, let’s do everything. And especially for India two years, you know, back to back. I think that is since 2000, last year, 2022 when the ban has been at ease the dining people are going out a lot more to eat and they’re like Okay let’s just step out and experiment.

Ashish Tulsian: See the revenge eating was definitely there. But I also feel that especially in India, I mean my my view is that I think one is that people are growing up on Internet all at once, right? So if you look at the tier two or three or four, right from our perspective, we do a lot less business in India. But but because we work with like large brands and and the way we see how they’re penetrating tier three or four. Yeah. Which was almost impossible five years back and five years is like, like recent past. But you know, all I can see is that people, you know, are suddenly saying that, hey, I want the same experience in my city, I want the same experience in Ranchi, and I want the same experience in Guwahati and the amount of restrobars, breweries, somebody you know, we apparently have three customers who are breweries in Siliguri. Yeah. So that for me, I mean, I’m looking at India from that perspective that, you know, what is happening in the in the veins of the country is actually much bigger in, you know what I feel the latent than than the than the, you know, Delhi, Bombays and Bangalore.

Panchali: It is happening I mean, right now, I think in comparison to now that my little understanding of the India market when I compared the metros with the metropolitan cities with Bombay, Bangalore, Delhi, Calcutta, I think Bombay and Bangalore is like all time high, right now. There are different league. Even Goa, it’s it at all time.

Ashish Tulsian: Yeah. Goa.

Panchali: Yeah. But it’s like.

Ashish Tulsian: Goa just burst after COVID, actually during COVID.

Panchali: It’s just going insane every day in Goa. I have people right now, you know, I think after Inja’s little success that I would say, people would reach out and say do you want to do something in Goa? I was like no, Let me figure it out. I have two restaurants now in Delhi. Let me just figure out both of them And I’ve just entered for me, India.

Ashish Tulsian: Goa saw a like very interesting shift. Goa in the last three years has transformed as an Indian tourist destination. If you talk to Goan locals, till last year, they were not happy. It it took them time to come to terms with the fact that, all right, this is what our audience is like.

Panchali: I had a friend, she put a post on her Instagram. And I read that and I was laughing. And when she said that, you know, she’s lived in Goa for some time and she’s actually a baker. And she said, I miss the old smells of bread bread baking and, you know, go out sweet. Now it all smells like tandoori chicken.

Ashish Tulsian: No, but that but that’s actually true. Goans have such a big complaint that, you know, Delhiites and north Indians have just flooded it like nothing else which is true as well I, I don’t really blame them.

Panchali: Because it is it’s so many people from Delhi like so many restauranteurs who enter every day. I know because a few people who I know in real estate, because they talk to me that this one is coming in and this brand is coming. Let them.

Ashish Tulsian: Come in. Yeah. And prices have gone. I mean.

Panchali: Because real estate was cheap in Goa. Yeah. That is what. And it will of course impact the real estate right now in comparison to Bombay and Delhi. Delhi’s still cheaper than Mumbai. Bangalore is expensive. I mean, Delhi is also expensive.

Ashish Tulsian: But I think I think I think one of the reasons is that, you know, people from Bombay are still price conscious, cost conscious just by design. So when Bombay people go to Goa, they negotiated price basis Goa, they did not negotiate price basis, Bangalore, Bombay. Delhi People when they went to Goa, they did not negotiate.

Panchali: Yeah, I must tell you, Delhi has no like, you know, Delhi will pay if they like a place. They have no price point.

Ashish Tulsian: Correct, no semblance of that Okay, This is affordable. This is not.

Panchali: No. Because it’s a huge genre of clientele who will pay for money. The 200 families in Delhi. You can and you can’t compete. Bombay doesn’t have that. It doesn’t have that that hold of the spending power that Delhi has. That’s why it’s amazing. That’s why I think for Inja, that’s why people ask why not here as the real estate is pretty much the same in terms of retail and restaurant. But you get a better space in Delhi square footage wise and I think people are. I personally think that the spending power to understand the fine dining in Delhi is a lot more which has worked beautifully. Bombay could have revolted. It could be like they would have understood the concept a lot more, probably a lot more forgiving sort of what we have done.
But they would have found the price by price point good. Price point not affordable, but Delhi people are coming back. I have you know, the return customer ratio is high and.

Ashish Tulsian: Delhi’s depth of spending capacity is quite, quite deep.

Panchali: And look where I am. I’m in new friends colony. Yeah, I’m like sitting in the creme-de-la-creme, the posh location and you have everybody close by they you’re sitting on gold mind so if they are not being able to spend and nobody else can, then this concept would not work anywhere unless I make it into a bar which it wasn’t.

Ashish Tulsian: I mean Indian accent has been running for ages.

Panchali: We went there because of that when Indian accent left the for the fact that they could pull in the numbers. Yes. So in 2018 I think Indian accent moved to the Lodhi Yeah. And ever since then, you know, the landlords were just doing their own thing. Then nothing major came in and then I took over and I think the only reason I think I even wanted to put my money in there, if you see the location, you would be like, Why? Well, who’s going to come here?

Ashish Tulsian: So I know the location, it’s a great spot.

Panchali: For the people who are listening to us. You know.

Ashish Tulsian: It’s it’s a good spot.

Panchali: It’s but it’s so isolated. It’s a destination. It’s in a you know, it is in a gated community because you have the some of the most some of the richest people in Delhi living there. And it’s towards the end of it and the hotel is right right so you have to drive to come there it’s not that you’re sitting on a high footfall area.

Ashish Tulsian: But that’s exactly the clientele that you’re looking for as well.

Panchali: Sometimes I want some extra footfall, so, you know, there are days not everybody’s going to drive down, but but the fact that I saw the numbers and what Indian accent came out of it, I thought, you know what? It’s better to be isolated and to have your destination. And we can’t complain. You know, we unfortunately, unfortunately, yes we were riding on on the, the iconic and the legendary stuff that it did and left behind it, it’s so easy for people to, when you tell them where Indian accent was but I think I’m so happy now the next the last seven months Inja has made its own identity and people are able to, where Inja is now in Delhi.

Ashish Tulsian: So that is that is super. What what happened after LPQ.

Panchali: So after LPQ, I moved to Dubai.

Ashish Tulsian: And what, what year was that?

Panchali: This was 2011. I have moved to Dubai and was looking cold, calling for jobs what I wanted. And it’s all it’s all, it’s all destiny. It’s all lined up together.

Ashish Tulsian: And was there a reason to move to Dubai?

Panchali: Yes, I actually I was I got married and because of my ex-husband for my first marriage, that was reason he was in Dubai and I moved to Dubai for him. That’s why I left Ahimsa in India, even though I loved my job, I think that was one of the most fantastic time in my career. You know, I was learning, It was a great team, you know Anish personally can’t say anything else I was having a great time. That good paying job. Bombay. What else could you ask for? But, you know, like I said, I was still silly. Love costed me. I think so. But it was pulling me. My marriage did last for long. But you know what it did? It left me a great career and that was probably my pull to Dubai. I moved here and I was making cold calls. And as luck would have it, one of the best companies in that time it was called EPJ by these two gentlemen, Elmar and Patrick, who ran this company, who had opened Zuma and La petite, and we opened Jetty Lounge and I was working for the kurzner group for them for one and only the Royal Mirage, China and we opened an iconic restaurant that I’m called Cabara. So anyways, I joined them as project manager and was by chance because it is so strange that I remember the time when I was cold calling and I called up this company and I think a project manager picked up the phone and I said, La la la. And she’s like, Oh, okay, hold on. And she called up one of the owners was passing by and he said, Hey, Patrick, there’s this girl who wants to speak do you have time. And, you know, Patrick picked up the call and he said, yes. I said, I’m so sorry. You know, I was you know, I’ve done this, this, this. Would you have 5 minutes to catch up with me and talk? And ideally the kind of man he is and how busy he is and he was the owner. Why would he meet me? But he said, you know what is so strange? A project manager resigned yesterday and I’m looking for a project manager. So I was like, Me me, choose me. And he’s like, Your qualification. You just move to Dubai, but let’s just catch it. So he was kind enough and he called me on a site of this restaurant called Cabara that we were working in and I went there to meet him and apparently he liked me. He was impressed with my, and that’s probably one time my gold medal really helped me. And they’re like, Hmm, okay, so you have you got a stamp? And I joined that company, and since then, till now, I have done around 80 restaurants. And that is when the real F&B consulting with them. And I worked with them for close to three years.

Ashish Tulsian: So this was a consulting company.

Panchali: So that was sheer consulting.

Ashish Tulsian: But like a turnkey.

Panchali: Everything. But they also owned it because they were doing concepts for real clients, but they also owned they to sweat equity and we did back to back. So, you know,

Ashish Tulsian: 80 Restaurants?

Panchali: Not with them overall now, but with them, I think close to 10 to 15 restaurants, a lot more must have because they were like senior people. They had to open Zuma in London and Zuma here that’s very senior people. And and I was like, how do you get to be that lucky to work for the best company? I think they were they were number one at that time, but they opened something called Few Men pier seven we owned that restaurant we broke even in six months. It was a whole talk in 2013 about that concept. And so I worked for them for three, three and a half years. You know, I learned a lot. Unfortunately, some of their major restaurants shut down Cabarra, which was at that time a $10 million restaurant which was supposed to be the next Zuma.

Ashish Tulsian: Like $10 million revenue or investment?

Panchali: Investment, investment. And it didn’t work. I think it shut down in a year’s time. Then the other one restaurant in business Bay, which was another 5 million. So, you know, these restaurants kept shutting down and they didn’t know what, how and where to go ahead. And I think so for them, I was for three and a half years, but that made my solid, solid base with a foreign country. And I did. That’s what I did. Again, dirty job like every menial job. And there was again, I didn’t care printing papers bringing them, making tea for people who came in. And even though there was, you know, a utility, but I was all, I have no problem. Did everything just wanted to learn everything too quickly because I was just so excited, you know? And if you’re doing job and and I remember like, you know, Gordon Ramsay’s coming in and out and, you know, all these nice chefs are coming and they’re all friends because he’s British and they have access to that. And you just like I have read your book and I’ve seen you on TV yelling and I’ve seen that. So that was just think I was having fun. I was I was 27. So it was just fun.

Ashish Tulsian: Nice.

Panchali: My marriage wasn’t working, but my profession line was going great. So, you know, God always has plans and and.

Ashish Tulsian: Then from there?

Panchali: And then from there, the next one was a company called Glee Hospitality, with a gentlemen called, Abdul Kader Sadi. And they were doing a lot of QSRs and and.

Ashish Tulsian: I haven’t met him, but have met him on Zoom. He’s now doing 86.

Panchali: Now he’s doing 86. Yeah. So I joined him and, you know, I wanted to then understand the QSR and the mid the casual dining market because you remember 2014-15, the market had just come up homegrown and mid-level. And then I wanted to learn that and I said to learn the real F&B side you need to go in and understand that market because luxury, now I have got from the EPJ boys. That I got into him and in one and a half, two years and two years that I worked for Glee. So now I am now the project director. So I’ve gone from a project manager to a senior manager as a project director, had a good group of people. I did 29 restaurants. That’s how it was just the cookie cutter, you know QSR model.

Ashish Tulsian: This was your first tries with QSR as well?

Panchali: Yeah, this is my first because I haven’t done that before. And for me the mid-scale level was Le Pain Quotidien in India. But then that again because you’ve to understand I came from the Oberois and Taj and I’ve worked in high dining restaurants, then LPQ also the Bombay way it was never a it was a fine casual. It was always because you’re serving alcohol and they wanted the placement that way. And then with with EPJ team, they were all fine dining and high end and your million dollar investments. So this is my first QSR. So I wasn’t enjoying so much. I missed the luxury market, but it was a huge learning because by then, by then I knew how much it cost to put a screw in a table. That is what I wanted to learn. I wanted to know everything. What is your budget? How much money you spend per square footage per seat. Per this, per that. All the pers were getting answered for me, and that’s exactly what I wanted. So then my, my, my theoretical and my technical knowledge was then just rubbed and refined. Because when you’re doing, you know, a small project or you’re doing I was doing more of like, you know, receiving things and printing things and menial jobs, but you can’t learn until and unless here you start opening the restaurant, you are like the head and you have five people reporting and doing restaurants. Then you are like, Now you’ve polished the diamonds.

Ashish Tulsian: And also it is it was like completing that circle because in luxury, the the like the play is quite there, right.

Panchali: And Too many people involved, in Glee there wasn’t like if even though I was a project director but there were certain restaurants I took that I wanted to open from start to scratch.

Ashish Tulsian: And also QSR is like a thing like your, your, your leash is like you, you have the.

Panchali: I was like, I think casual at the casual dining space that I think he had stopped doing the QSR models so much, the kiosks and everything else. I think we went more in international franchises and middle, but it was good. It was to understand all levels of operations, all levels of that, the how franchises work. What are the you negotiations, lease, this, that every everything. So it was just great That was I don’t know what my five years of schooling at that time this is what the last I think the the five years of Dubai is what it taught me from every model and whatever. I had to learn it. I went everywhere. I was grabbing knowledge left, right center.

Ashish Tulsian: And then?

Panchali: And then this amazing gentleman who was sitting in New York, I don’t know how he found me on LinkedIn. Sent me a message througgh one of his employees and he said that, listen, we’re we are looking at expanding to Middle East from New York and we’re looking for somebody to start the company and open an operating office in Dubai. And this company was called Alta Maria. And my founder, whose name is Mr. Ahmass Fakahany, who is an ex, was was the president and CEO of Merrill Lynch, now Bank of America. So big Wall Street guy. Loved F&B so opened one of the most iconic restaurants in New York called Marea. You know for 13 years was two Michelin starred at the Central Park at the Plaza and and many other iconic restaurants. And under the group they wanted to expand Altamarea and they said we are looking for somebody to lead it in Dubai. And I was like this is a joke. I’m 32 years old. They want me to open an international Michelin star restaurant company in Dubai. And the maths wasn’t mathing. It wasn’t working. And but he said, I we are not going to do all this, you know, whatever Zoom or Skype call. We are going to sorry, we are going to call you over to New York and we need you to meet face to face, because we are we are we want to hire the head of our company. And that cannot happen over Zoom. We need to, I said no problem. Now, what do I tell my now? I’m going on record and saying it, but what do I tell my Glee boss? Because I’d just come back from vacation. So I took the flight on because Fridays and Saturdays used to be off then so six years back in 2017. So I took a flight on a Thursday night from here to New York, reached New York Friday morning, had an interview for 8 hours. The whole board was there. They took me to all the restaurants. So I’ve reached at like 10:00 morning, Friday time from 10:00 till like 7:00 in the evening. I’m just giving interviews now. Got selected. They had made me the managing director. You know, everybody has interviewed me from every person. Like even the legal team was like, Why is the counsel interviewing me, it is very intimidating, you know, with eight men. And one is a Wall Street, one of the biggest man on Wall Street. Like, you know, you’re sitting in an interview with them and then what really got me going was I’m a straight shooter and I didn’t bullshit. And my technical knowledge was very strong. So all the technical questions that kept coming from everywhere and so I think that is what I was like, Oh, I am. My mind was like, Oh, you know, I’m ready for this. I don’t, but I didn’t know how to start a company. And then I have ran back, taken the flight on Friday night. I’m in New York taking that flight and landed here on Saturday night because.

Ashish Tulsian: Saturday late night.

Panchali: Late night, and then Sunday morning I’m in office like nothing has happened.

Ashish Tulsian: Did you have like a skip.

Panchali: Like no jet lag Nothing. No jetlag.

Ashish Tulsian: No, no, no. What do you what do you what are you flying when?

Panchali: Absolutely. That’s why there was no jetlag. I was just so exhilarated and that the whole flight, I was like my I, you know, I knew my life was about to change. I don’t know what how successful the company would have would have done, but something in me was just so excited a kid. I was like, I can’t believe and I mean, I can’t tell you my pay. But it was good. It was a good, you know, good, good deal that we had signed for and remunerated six years back to be 32 and get that going and to start a company from scratch. So that is what.

Ashish Tulsian: That is awesome.

Panchali: And ever since then has been the company six years old and the rest is in front of you. We have almost close to 12 to 13 restaurants in Middle East and India have a michelin star and the world’s 50 best MENA have won a lot of awards the team grew from Four people that we started office to almost close to 900 people today and super happy. And you know, it’s been a very steady, very organic growth. And now I have I really want to show the world what I will do next five years for Atelier house hospitality.

Ashish Tulsian: Yeah that that sum-up looked like a like a jist of an overnight success.

Panchali: Not really, there has been many hours of hardwork, but I have a fantastic team and that’s why I think one thing we always said is we were not looking for we were not looking for employees, we were looking for family. We, each one of us is working. There is more like a family for me. I joke with them, I treat them. They know at middle of the night of the need, anything my phone is available, I’m there for them. And even today, when we hire people, we like you this is AHH is a family, you know, whatever you need. We are there at any point of time. And that is how you, I think, build good companies and people have stayed, So there are some.

Ashish Tulsian: There’s no there’s no other way.

Panchali: The core team of mine who’s been there, the day that they joined, my, my head of projects, my finance director. I mean today they’re all directors and you know, vice presidents and stuff. They were there from day one. They’re still here because they have seen the growth and, you know, and they see it like where we are about to build. I mean, you know, nobody can see it. We have Kevin who’s here, my head of marketing, sitting in the room with us, and he comes from a great company before, you know, I mean, I applaud him for what he has done. And and the company that he worked for, they have a two Michelin stars Right now. And, you know, as an Indian chef doing well and he comes and the last time I was like, are you sure you want to come and join? I come. You come from, you know, and you can we he’s one of the top marketing guys in the country, and he could find any job. But I think he saw the camaraderie. And today he’s almost close to a year now and he’s having a lot of fun, which I need to also check for them. They’re all having too much fun, but enjoying too much. But no, we are so happy and we get to do such amazing concept. He have such amazing partners and and everybody in my team. We are also, you know, I tell you, we we enjoy and we love our success yet we we are all very humble and very grounded people. We are all still the same basic people that we we guys were five years back and and nobody has any comes, no heirs, no nothing. We just love our job. And, you know, just.

Ashish Tulsian: I mean, that that speaks that speaks highly of the hard work that all of you, you know, are putting in. Because my it’s not a belief it’s an observation is that humans do have egos. But when you work very, very hard, it just gets, you know, sanded off. Yeah. So so if somebody still has ego, I’m like, you know what? I think you still need some sanding you’re not working hard to drive a little harder than you’ll be humble automagically you you know what is going to be.

Panchali: What is the thing we say in in it’s a Hindi, you know, proverb but fruit laden tree bends down.

Ashish Tulsian: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Panchali: That’s what you do. And I think we got that from our CEO from our Founder from Mr. Fakahany. I mean one of the top guys, you know, in banking and investment today in the industry and he has everything that you can think of, but you’ll see him. He’s so humble, so polite, so giving and so understanding.

Ashish Tulsian: No but that that that means that he has gotten this with a lot of hardwork there is no other way.

Panchali: Of course you know I mean him having an Egyptian background but he grew up in Switzerland and England. But, you know, he studied in Boston and he’s actually the chairperson of Boston University, also part of doing everything else. I’m like, I know how he’s 65 years old and such a big motivator. So, you know, the times when we get tired and I look at him, I was like, he’s not stopped and he doesn’t need to work. He doesn’t need to work at all for a single day. But he loves working and he’s like, What else is there to do? Is used to work and enjoy And and then we see him and there are days when and, you know, he just walking around with a simple t shirt, you know, and the bank balance doesn’t define him why should it define us. Who are we? We’ve done nothing in our lives. So for us and for our team, we are all having fun. We have some great concepts, some great partnerships.

Ashish Tulsian: Because you’re talking about team, you know, and then so highly. How much of you being a sportsperson at heart or, you know, the formative years? What a sportsperson. How much of that reflects on your like how do you reflect on your career personally? How do you feel? Do you feel something about being a sportsperson, being a team player?

Panchali: You know what, one thing immediately I have to talk. Think about it. I when I was playing basketball and you know, some of the circumstances and scenarios in India, even when you are playing, I have slept on floors for weeks because we didn’t have proper mattresses. I’ve slept and in sports I hope the scenario has changed. But there was a lot of people from Tier three cities from not too well-to-do families. They came from very humble backgrounds, and the women had to prove themselves to even get that job in railways, you know, for a small salary to be a ticket collector. And we’ve seen, you know, some of the movies of cricketers have to go through it. So it was it’s never been easy. So and I came, I think when I was playing, representing U.P. for one of my nationals in my U.P. team. And I had to go through the 10 days of there were like 23 people and they choose the team from there. And you know, I came from a certain background and from certain schools and I had such some branded socks and shoes. And, you know, my parents packed me up without even understanding what is about to happen to me. And I remember when my mom came to drop me where the the the training was supposed to be. It was a haunted house. It had nothing. It had a dirty bathroom, which was one bathroom with one big dormitory room and no, nothing else. And that one bathroom had to be, you know, the Indian style and one cubicle to be fit for 20 women. And all those 20 women, they were just me and one other girl from Lucknow. And even she came from a humble background. The other 18 people were all very small places, Benaras, Alibaug, you know, being in small towns and villages that they had come and they worked there. And so I think that part of my life and of course playing taught me that. And, you know, the love for food like that, like I said, a dignity of labor. So nothing I slept on on the floors I have I never complain. My mom was very proud of me. She said when she came to see me, she saw me, you know, like a stinky shoes and this and that living and well and mosquitoes are biting and you’re on the floor. And she’s like, She had a crying. She’s like, Oh, have you been living like this for the last ten, 15 days? And you didn’t see I when we could talk, I didn’t have a mobile phone so we could go to a booth to call her up. And I never complained. I would only say that, oh, I miss food and but you know, that’s fine. And she said, it’s okay. You know, you’re not supposed to eat all of this. But when they came to pick me up and they were like, You’ve been living like this and you didn’t complain, I said, no. So I think that aspect of, you know, now I don’t have that ego. I have no ego left. There are times when I want to bring my ego out like, Oh, but I have done so much I have achieved. I my ego needs to come out and people have to understand. I am very passionate. I have zero ego, which is so bad.

Ashish Tulsian: Why is it bad?

Panchali: Sometimes I want to have a little bit of, you know, like a little bit of ego is it’s good to just have that self pride more than ego but that I mean but then I don’t have it.

Ashish Tulsian: Right but but you may feel pride, right?

Panchali: A different kind of pride.

Ashish Tulsian: But one of the moments where you when you feel like when you are like you know what I mean. Come on I’ve definitely had.

Panchali: There’ve been quite a few of late, I think of course winning the Michelin star has been just like and I think I’m very few women Indian women in the world who have as a restauranteur who have. I think I know 2. I think there’s Garima Arora who opened Ga in Bangkok. And there is Samyukta Nair, Captain Nair’s daughter who owned Leela. And then she got a michelin star for, I think, one of her restaurants in London from Jamawar. And she’s actually coming to Dubai also now. And I don’t know any other Indian woman restauranteur who has ever won a Michelin star. So I think that’s one of the biggest moments to be the world’s 50 best MENA, to have the restaurant there, to have successful restaurants working, making money. I think that’s and just.

Ashish Tulsian: What are the cheap thrills?

Panchali: Cheap thrills is when I won the restauranteur of the year and there were nine other men, so Naim was one of them. Yeah. So I think I was you know, I was waiting for four years. This was my fourth year of nomination. I was like, Well, I think it’s time that I won something, you know, worked very hard. And I don’t I don’t like doing this whole woman card thing. I think anyone who works hard deserves it. Whether a man or a woman. I don’t choose my team members because, well, no, I have to be nice to women.

Ashish Tulsian: No, I want to I want to double click on that. You know, What’s your what’s your view on, you know, two: one women in hospitality, Much less like like like very small percentage and not in leadership roles, you know, kitchens all over the world are run by women patriarchy but then in commercial kitchens are run by men which is which which is which is also quite confusing.

Panchali: I think it is. Because I tell you, like my one of my statements was that the longevity of the physical attribution in the operations of restaurants, I think most of the time I don’t think women want to push themselves to do it. My I think you have to understand all of us work hard. You know, I have to put these two for women. I have to give you two aspect. I’m not saying that 10 other women who are working, were not working hard. They’re working hard. You and I, everybody in this room is working hard. But there’s also something called luck and a destiny. And some people are destined to have something. My luck is a little stronger than few others, so I got a lot more limelight. I’m just saying. But that doesn’t mean that other women who are not working as hard. But I always feel everybody has a little luck also and opportunity riding with them. Well, hard work is not everything.

Ashish Tulsian: Oh, I mean, I will not disagree with you very strongly because I don’t know, but I don’t want to dilute the point.

Panchali: No, I’ll come to that. But I what I think is there’s a part of me I was telling this to you is I didn’t also push hard. I did not like operations. So sometimes I have always said if women are not going to push hard enough and bring themselves out there and not complain and cry and be like, Oh, we can’t do 18 hours We can’t do this, we can’t do that. And I’m telling you, most of the time in hospitality, women are not there in back of the house, front of the house You can see that sales and marketing or revenue or even in headquarters. Operationally, it is the the toll that on the physical longetivity that probably it takes for women. There are very few who can take it. There’s a lot more that is required mentally also to be in a kitchen. At the end of the day, the heat that is built up in a back area and how a restaurant is done in it is not everybody’s, you know, tea to take that level of heat. And we all know how stressful it can be at the spur of the moment things are said and done. It’s not because it’s a personal thing. It it is a very professional driven thing. And you know, you’re working in look at the temperature when the chefs are working in, look at the rush and then, you know, nonstop you’re cooking and a hot line. You’re not stopping the aggression, the tiredness, the stamina. These define a lot of things. And I don’t think most women can take it. But I also think that women need to push a little bit more harder for some themselves and then come out and be like, when you work as hard enough, you will have a lot more opportunity.

Ashish Tulsian: But what about the leadership position, right? For example, you know, my co-founder, you know, Sakshi is a strong leader. She used to run her own company before we co-founded, you know, our current company together. And, you know, my view is that, you know, from a gender perspective, this is my personal opinion. I don’t really recognize genders as, you know, professionally, I don’t.

Panchali: As it should be.

Ashish Tulsian: Yeah. And I don’t. Right. And I think this was probably more intrinsic to me than a virtue that I was holding. I only realized later. But I have been constantly reminded of, you know, I generally get reminded of the gender from the gender from the let’s say, you know, a woman saying that, hey, you know what, I, I can’t do this. Or maybe, you know, this is not this is not something that I want to do. Maybe it’s like pushing professionally, pushing for the late hours or.

Panchali: True.

Ashish Tulsian: As a leader, leading an organization in hospitality, harsh environment. You so much so many variables. Nothing is constant. How do you look at that today?

Panchali: I think Let me rephrase and rethink to to a level I like You know, I agree with the point. The thing is that I have never looked at any job opportunity that comes in, whether even when we advertise it for Atelier House, saying that he she or she, whatever it is, gender neutral. Anybody who thinks are qualified for a certain job, please apply. But we have been also very lucky, especially in the headquarters, I’ll start with we have a 50/50 right now. I have 50 out of say 25 people working in the headquarters. I think I have 12 people who are women and 12 are men because we started getting those amazing, you know, résumés and and talent and potential to come and apply for those. And at that point of time, I am not looking for male or female or, you know, whoever fits into the criteria can do their job, please fill in and so that way I’ve had that balance very well. But now when we talk to of the operating thing the problem is you look at the ratio as well right as a leader if I have an opportunity for a waiter’s position, even as a restaurant manager now in a leadership roles as a restaurant manager, if I am receiving ten CV’s out of which two are women an eight are men, they can all come in. But look at the ratio also, I don’t even have the justification of giving an equal opportunity to women to even consider. First of all, so out of ten out of the ratio, eight out of eight have higher chances of a male candidate than out of two. So right don’t ratios are not matching. So whether you have to do a placement in leadership levels or the bottom rung at any level, the issue of of the data that you get or the candidature that you get is not there. So people are pushing a lot more. I think women are getting a lot more educated. I think the industry, they’re speaking a lot more about it. There’s a lot more. I think men in general have also started to understand the presence of women around and how to be a little bit more accommodating in general. I think back in the days nobody really cared. There’s a flying pan coming in and going across you and you’re like, okay, you live with it, now you can’t. So I think there’s a lot more consciousness, there’s a lot more, I think understanding.

Ashish Tulsian: You’re saying,

Panchali: Women are toughening up and they understand that. And I think they are they understand that this particular job is not an easy job. And this comes with a little bit of masculinity. So if men can go and do some of the feminine work, women are also being masculine. Well, because, you know, lifting up pans with, you know, 20 KGs of stuff and it’s not for everybody. So I think a lot more people are now aware that taking up challenges because there are people like your wife or I like to say about myself for breaking the glass ceiling. I know everything is possible for me because my biggest inspiration in life was when I saw Indra Nooyi, the Ex-CEO of PepsiCo. Yeah, I mean, look at that woman, she is so humble mother. And if she could, in as an Indian American, go down and break those barriers, I think today everything is possible and I think a lot more. So I saw her and that motivated me. I would like Hell yeah if she can do it, so can I, and nothing should stop me. So if I can do that, I’m sure that now the generations I see that a woman can be a CEO, a woman can be a president of a woman, can be, you know, CFOs, there is no stopping. So that opens women will open a lot more doors for women to leaders will create more leaders.

Ashish Tulsian: This was this was a great conversation. So congratulations on the journey so far quite a lot there. Quite interesting I can see, you know, all the layers of toughening up I think is a I don’t think that we can see all the hard work, you know, clearly in the conversation, but we can definitely see all the layers. And I’m sure penetrating through each was, almost.

Panchali:20 years of delivering and.

Ashish Tulsian: A 100%.

Panchali: More to go. Thank you so much.

Ashish Tulsian: Congratulations and all the best. Thank you.