Ashish Tulsian:

Hi, welcome to Restrocast. Today my guest is Mazen Kanaan. He’s the CEO of House of Pops. This is not a typical restauranteur’s conversation. This is an F&B operator who, you know, works at the intersection of food and retail. An ex Unilever sales and marketing person, spent a decade plus, starts running and managing ice cream for certain markets. And what pops out of his head is a popsicle. In his words, House of Pops is a happy brand. A brand where they are, they’re selling happiness not only to kids but also to adults. In last five years, what has come out of Mazen and his co-founder, who’s also his wife, of this couple’s hard work, is worth appreciation. And the story, What makes this story great is that the story is still in the building. It’s it’s still in the works. I loved my conversation with Mazen because there was something very thoughtful about how they are building this brand. How the business of popsicle is not just about popsicles, but it’s really about the customer experience. And and how are they replicating this experience across various touchpoints. There are also few nuggets of how to recruit a co-founder, making her a girlfriend and then a wife and also a business partner. I found Mazen’s candor really, really, you know Great. And worth emulating. Do watch. Welcome to this Restrocast. Mazen, welcome to Restrocast.

Mazen Kanaan:

Thank you.

Ashish Tulsian:

House of pops, I think you’re, the brand looks fun and as you said off camera you’re having fun as well. But before we dive into the fun, I want to know how it all started. And most importantly, where did you start from? Tell me more about your early years.

Mazen Kanaan:

Sure, sure. So originally I come from Lebanon. I studied economics and finance there, and then I started my corporate journey in F&B with Unilever. I traveled to Saudi Arabia in 2006 and I worked for a good 13 years with them.

Ashish Tulsian:

13 years?

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes, 13 years between Saudi Arabia. And then I moved to Turkey and then I came back to Dubai. So everything I know is from Unilever. And then in the last eight years, I was handling the ice cream business for Unilever. And at that time I found there is a gap in the market for something that is tasty but also healthy at that time five years ago, There is and it’s continuing till now, this health and wellness trend, you can see it everywhere in clothing, in vacations, in food, and especially in the snacks, like you go to those supermarkets or petrol stations, you will see the keto cookie, the protein brownies, the biscuits enriched with different ingredients. But once you go to the ice cream section, you will find all the regular traditional high fat, high sugar products. So there is a demand for health and wellness product. But that is an issue in the supply in the ice cream. So given my background in the ice cream, given the gap in the market, I thought that could be a golden opportunity.

Ashish Tulsian:

Why did you find how did you see that gap? What was the insight on the ground where you felt you felt that, hey, you know what? There’s there’s there’s a.

Mazen Kanaan:

Just because in Unilever, I was responsible for the ice cream in in this part of the world and we used to go to my on to market visits and then whenever you enter into any supermarket you go around the shelves checking what’s new. And I keep kept seeing like new health and wellness snacks and bars popping up, popping up. And after I finish my tour, I come to the ice cream to check our products and there is nothing there. So it is really an insight from the market.

Ashish Tulsian:

I’m really I mean, this kind of insights are, you know, quite amazing. I was speaking to somebody a couple days back. Have you heard of this company called this brand called Celsius? No, no, it’s it’s in the US. So these guys very recently, like an year or two maybe maybe, I mean, yeah it has to be this much they came out with an energy drink which is healthy and for women. And they are killing it Right now. Killing It is an understatement actually. The stock prices going through the roof Celsius is everywhere. It’s a women centric healthy energy drink. Who might have thought? Well, and the insight. And when I was talking to the analysts, I was like, what was insight? He said The insight was that while Red Bull is unhealthy, you know, women were not drinking it because I asked them, I said, What do you mean by energy drink for women? What does that mean? And he’s like the women did not relate to Red Bull, you know, And it was quite clear that women were not, you know, drinking that I was like, but there is a sugar-free Red Bull. Yeah. Said Yes. But the point is that women were not drinking Red Bull. And when when that gap was found, because, you know, when you’re partying out of whatever you’re doing, the other half of the population was missing from the addressable market. They were rejecting it and then they picked it up and and boom. I mean, I’m still trying to get my head around the insight. But yeah, but the fact that these guys are flying off the shelves.

Mazen Kanaan:

But I’ll tell you, I tell you one thing that I could relate to that because people don’t consume products, they consume brands and experiences and associations. So yeah, there is a sugar free energy drink. But for them, Red Bull is does not really talk to them as a brand. And when you hold your iPhone or when you drive your Harley-Davidson, it’s much more about the experience and association and what it tells about you. Even when you hold a Starbucks cup, you know, it’s kind of a status. So that’s, I think, the basis of the of the insight. And then also it reminds me of a beautiful book that I’m very fond of. It’s called The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing. So they will tell you that like if you look at this region, Pepsi is the number one, Coca Cola is the number two, but globally, Coca Cola is the number one. And the main differentiation or what led to this is that Pepsi were the first here. So it’s better to be the first than to be the best. That is one of their laws. And then the second it says that if you are not able to be the first, try to be the first in a subcategory. And I think this is exactly what they have built in. Okay, energy drinks, it’s already Red Bull is there. How can I, Okay, there is a group of people, they are not consuming it. How can I be the first to tackle this opportunity? And here you go.

Ashish Tulsian:

Yeah, quite a yeah, you’re right. Quite a way to subcategories and catch your attention. Yeah, but what was what, what were 13 years of Unilever? I want to know, you know, where did you start from and what was what were those years like? What were you doing on ground?

Mazen Kanaan:

Actually, that’s that’s a funny story, how it started because you talking about the person and less on the business. So when I finished my studies in in Lebanon, I was granted the Fulbright Scholarship to go and continue my studies in the U.S. and it’s a very competitive scholarship by the, I think the Ministry of Education or something like this in the US to continue doing economic development. And then at the same time, I got an offer from Unilever and then I thought, okay, where do I want to continue my life? Do I want to to go into the corporate world or going more into the United Nations, World Bank, those kind of things. And I got really excited by the brand world and how you can build brands and experiences, etc.. So I decided to take the Unilever offer and I dropped the Fulbright Scholarship. So initially I moved to Saudi Arabia. I was around 21, 22 years old, and I started working on food, on the food category, on I.

Ashish Tulsian:

But but what is your role in marketing?

Mazen Kanaan:

Initially, I started in sales. Yeah, right. In sales.

Ashish Tulsian:

I would assume that.

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes, Yes. I was recruited for sales. So more of planning in the head office. And then I did one year like that and then I moved the second year to Riyadh and I was managing Carrefour as a key account manager on behalf of Unilever, selling the entire portfolio. And then everything changed in the third year where the fourth year actually when there was an opening on Lipton in the marketing department. And this is where people can make and life can like take you into different opportunities by luck or by, you know, interference of some key people. So I had zero experience in marketing. I worked for three years in sales and Lipton is the biggest brand for Unilever at that time. And then because I have worked well with the F&B team, they found that I could or they they thought I have a high potential to be a good marketeer. So they offered me the position of brand manager for Lipton. I was 24 years old and for me it was like something very impressive, you know, to be able to handle such a mega brand in a key country at that age. So I took the challenge and we did well. So I worked for three years, So three years in sales, three years in marketing on Lipton.

Ashish Tulsian:

What’s that role like? Like, what do you mean by a brand manager for Lipton in Unilever?

Mazen Kanaan:

So marketing in Unilever at that time is split into two different roles: brand building and brand development. Brand development is more about innovating new product, bringing new flavors, driving communication, product innovation, brand building is taking this campaign from the central team. Let’s say they sit in Turkey, for example, if, let’s say this year Lipton is communicating about clarity of the mind. What is clarity of the mind for the Saudi consumers? How would they understand that? What is the thing that I can do for them to to get the message? So I adapt the regional campaign to the local context and I do activation in relevant places, etc.. So really understanding the local consumers and how I can connect with them, this is how we build the brand.

Ashish Tulsian:

How much of that is controlled by Lipton as well?

Mazen Kanaan:

By the central team? Yeah, so it depends to great. It depends on the brand. The bigger the bigger the brand, the more control you have, the smallest, the more flexibility. There was control to to an acceptable to, let’s say yeah, a good extent. But because Saudi Arabia is a key market for Lipton globally before they conclude the campaign they would take our inputs. All right but mainly my job was brand building and then after that, for three years, I moved to Turkey to handle a brand development role for ice cream in Turkey so that it was a different experience. I was working on the local brands that are in Turkey because they have the Magnum, the Cornetto, but they have also some local brands where you have much more.

Ashish Tulsian:

Still with Unilever?

Mazen Kanaan:

Still with Unilever. And then this is where I had to develop a new product.

Ashish Tulsian:

Why did that happen? Like, why Turkey?

Mazen Kanaan:

Good point. So they wanted to extend the ice cream distribution of Unilever in GCC. because they they launched several times before and it failed. So they wanted to have another attempt. So they said, okay, let’s recruit someone from the region to go into the regional office in Turkey and manage the the, the the expansion plan in that region especially. They had big plans for Saudi Arabia. So the closest to ice cream in Unilever portfolio is the F&B, which is Lipton. And because I was handling that so I had the high chances. So this is where I moved and we started working there, developing new campaigns, shooting new commercials, developing new products. And after three years, the expansion of plan materialized and then they needed someone to manage now the business in the region. So I came back to Dubai and I was managing this expansion, entering new countries, managing a team between sales, marketing, trade marketing, etc. across Middle East and North Africa. And this is where I spent another three years before getting out.

Ashish Tulsian:

Hmm. What’s the business of ice cream? What’s the nuance in the business of ice cream?

Mazen Kanaan:

In what sense?

Ashish Tulsian:

Like supply chain, manufacturing. How difficult, how easy? Like how do you how do you look at the like, how did you discover the business of ice cream, you know, to feel, hey, you know what? I can I can do this.

Mazen Kanaan:

Yeah. So initially, so you need to have, I think, a bit of foolishness in order to start this endeavor, because if you really want to say, okay, you know what? I want to start an ice cream business and you start thinking the product, the supply chain, the CapEx, the profitability, you say, okay, I can do that so that at some points the excitement of having your own business just takes over everything.

Ashish Tulsian:

And I think I think entrepreneurship is really about optimistic stupidity. There is no other way. I mean, you know, it’s funny that you said what you said, right? Because, you know, you know, this company called Nvidia

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes, of course.

Ashish Tulsian:

One of the largest chip maker in the world. The graphic accelerators.

Mazen Kanaan:

Now they are doing wonders.

Ashish Tulsian:

Recently, And, you know, if you know that, it’s great, right? So recently they went up again because the new New AI chip, you know, much powerful devices. So the founder of NVIDIA continues to be at the helm of the you know things he it is one of those multi hundred billion dollar founder run company so so he was recently asked in an interview that with what you know today what you have to do if you know look if you’re not that exactly the interviewer was asking something else that if you know if with what you know today if you knew this 30 years back how would Nvidia have shaped.

Mazen Kanaan:

Mm.

Ashish Tulsian:

He said, if I knew what I know today I would have never started this. My interviewer was, was shocked and this is, this is a legend speaking and interviewer then again and interjected and then No, no, come on. I mean, like you’re saying you wouldn’t have started. He said, Well, you know what? No matter what we are doing, the fact that if I knew 30 years back the amount of pain, mental pressures, humiliation, crests and troughs, the rollercoaster that I’m going to have, the personal price that I’m going to pay to just be on this journey, if I knew it, I’ll be absolutely out of my mind to start this. And I was watching this and I was like, You know what? I hear you. I mean, I, I know that he doesn’t mean it in the true sense, you know, bugger would have still done that. But, but, but you know, I think it’s that that’s stupidity is real.

Mazen Kanaan:

That’s true. Um, so yeah, so ice cream, I mean, of course there’s like good things in it. So it’s, it has higher barriers to entry than other food products because it’s a cold chain. So let’s say if I wanted to launch a new, um, Tea brand so I can get the tea from somewhere, I can do packing and then if I go to the supermarket, um, let’s say if I listed that, the merchandizers can push a bit the tea packs like this maybe to the coffee, make a space and then put it for me. For ice cream No, that is a confined space that that you cannot even push because there is a freezer. So from that I think also the supply chain is expensive. You know, you need the refrigerated trucks, you need to have high CapEx. So those are challenging. But I’m happy to operate in a in this category because not everyone would be able to enter. So that is higher.

Ashish Tulsian:

You don’t see you don’t see that ice cream brands coming everyday.

Mazen Kanaan:

Yeah, yeah. But I think like a bar or a cookie, you can find it very easily in any kitchen. They can, they can do that. Another part which I think is extremely good, which is not what I learned from Unilever, and this is something very related to House of Pops specific is the multi-channel touchpoints that you can have. And this is very unique like and also at always, I used to amuse myself saying this when for example, we do a lot of events and you see, let’s say those burger trucks and that is like a lot of people there and it hurts you, you know, because when you are having something, you go to an event you want to sell the most. And if there is not like a huge queue, you hate everyone. You know, this competitive thinking. But then I used to tell myself that this burger place can. Yeah, it has his own shop. He can do events. He cannot go to the supermarket. Yeah. He would not be able to, let’s say, to go to an let’s say schools for example, where we are doing so in our model, we operate around seven channels. We have our own shops, we have we service the hotels, restaurants, cafes, we do events, we do catering, we do online. We are present in the supermarkets, we do schools. So that is a lot of touchpoints that wherever you go you can be faced by that. Some products are only either in a restaurant or some other products are only in the supermarkets. But the nice thing about ice cream is that it has really several channels and a lot of touchpoints. And I think the most fun part is that it is a fun product. Like you rarely I’ve never seen someone crying and eating ice cream. And this reflects also on the culture and on the people.

Ashish Tulsian:

It’s a happy product.

Mazen Kanaan:

Yeah, it’s a happy product. Like your first, you’re proud. On top of that, you’re proud because it’s good, natural, healthy, but also it’s a happy product and it reflects on the way we communicate. And we are in the company. Um.

Ashish Tulsian:

Do, do, do you do your own manufacturing or is a contractor?

Mazen Kanaan:

No, we do our own manufacturing. Initially when we started, we started in a small kitchen in a small one, 100 square meters. And it was funny because that when we wanted to start we got a CapEx or the first machinery we got were from China. They costed us $1,500 and $1,500 to ship them. So this is now we start with $3,000.

Mazen Kanaan:

And then because we needed a license if we want to supply to hotels. Um, so I wanted to supply hotels maybe. Yes. This also is a funny story when we thought there is an opportunity in the market, we said, okay, before we start doing it, let’s check with like potential customers. So I knew some people in the in the hotels. So we went with my wife. She was my girlfriend now, then fiancee, and now she is my wife. And we went I remember to one of the hotels and we met the buyer and we impersonated like we have an ice cream business. And you tell them, you know, we have this.

Ashish Tulsian:

Oh, you, you had nothing?

Mazen Kanaan:

We had nothing. Yeah. And told them. Okay, would you be interested? Said, Yeah, this is really interesting. Whatever. And then he sent us email. I mean, please send me samples. So we said we are just shifting now the factory and I will come back to you in two months. So we did this for two or three times and you know, that was that there is demand for for a concept like that. So in order to service the hotels, you need to have a location ourself, whatever. So we took this 100 square meter, a normal kitchen, but then it was a hundred square meters for us was huge initially. And to get HACCP you need to have the production under some cover.

Ashish Tulsian:

100 square meter is huge.

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes, for to start is huge. And we don’t need we have, let’s say, three or four machines next to each other to do so and then to get the certification of the HACCP, you need to have a closed environment so that if something falls, it doesn’t. And then this would need a lot of construction. And you looked into the warehouse and, you know, the typical warehouse is they have an office when you enter on the right six square meters, we said we can start there so we started there it’s already covered. Yeah. And so, yeah, we started that and we spent and then we moved outside the office to the main thing. We started developing. But in April 2022, So after.

Ashish Tulsian:

Then we would start by the way?

Mazen Kanaan:

So we opened the factory on 1st of April 2018 and the first pop we sold was on in September 2018. So after four months, something like this, and then from September 2018 to April 2022, we stayed in the normal QN so around 4 years, a bit less. And then we moved then to Jabar Ali Industrial. Now we have a 700 square meters facility, 7000 square feet. And yeah, it’s like really proper. We have ISO FCC, 22,000, all the, of course, certification, it’s a boutique factory. It’s not huge, but it is really and it’s for example, allergen free because a lot of the allergen free products you will see has been manufactured in a facility that contained traces, etc.. We don’t need to put that because no allergens enter into the factory like no milk, no nuts, nothing. So it’s really maintained in a in a way that fits the brands.

Ashish Tulsian:

How did the how did the market respond when you when you started, especially, you know, the retail side of it and I’m and I think this is partially another curiosity point. Is your popsicle or you know, the ice cream that you’re doing, did you do something different in the product packaging? Is it is it at Carrefour or is it being, you know, let’s or in any modern retail, is it being served the traditional style where, you know, there’s somebody standing at a, you know, with a refrigerator counter or is it is there something, you know, that you got an opportunity to do to change?

Mazen Kanaan:

So if we talk about the supermarkets, no, you can find that in the in the freezer. We do some point of sale material, too, to mention the brand, but we do some sampling and we bring our bike, so we do some activation there, but we don’t sell directly like we do in the shops outside, in the kiosks outside. But what’s different in our product compared to the rest of the of the products available are three things: purity, wellness and sustainability. So it’s made of four or five ingredients only compared to a 30 ingredients, 90 numbers in the traditional ice cream. Rich in fibers. We don’t use any coloring, any preservatives, etc.. And a big thing is on the sustainability part because and that’s a funny story. When we were the first time we sold, we started selling in the right market, the farmers market here. And then after a couple of weeks, we were approached by a consumer, a customer, and she told us, Listen, I love what you are doing, it’s great that you don’t use refined sugar, etc. but I would rather you use sugar, than use this plastic packaging because you are polluting everywhere, etc. And it was an eye opener for us and this is the importance again to be facing at the front face of the thing. And then I said, okay. So then we started doing some research and we ended up changing all our packaging from plastic to compostable packaging that we import from Italy. It’s made from plant starch and yeah, it’s compostable and we are the only ice cream using it even in.

Ashish Tulsian:

Is it like, what is it? Is it like biodegradable plastic?

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes. So compostable.

Ashish Tulsian:

Compostable Plastic?

Mazen Kanaan:

No it’s made from plant starch. It is made from Biaxially oriented poly (lactic acid) BOPLA. Um, so it can be composted and it cost us a lot, but but.

Ashish Tulsian:

But It feels like Plastic?

Mazen Kanaan:

It, it feels like plastic, but it gives a lot of sound. Like you can, you can feel it’s not plastic, but if you, if you don’t touch it, you will see it’s plastic. It’s exactly the same. And the touch is that you will feel some. Um. Yeah, Um, so yeah. So this is where the consumer help us evolve also the brand. So we say that we have now a brand which is natural inside out. Even we took the extra mile, the shirt and the shirts of our promoters are made from recycled plastic bottles. The gas we use have low global warming potential, so we take a lot of initiative.

Ashish Tulsian:

How do you I mean, this is all this is all beautiful. I mean, this is amazing, actually. But how do you as a business and this is more like on the commercial side, we all wondered the end of the day that, hey, you’re spending not only so much money, but, you know, there’s so much aspiration going on there. You are also spending so much effort, there’s so much detailing in making sure everything is biodegradable, sustainable, clean. Do you think that your customer cares?

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes, of course they care. They care. We can see it from the people, the way they interact on social media, their comments, their advocacy. You know, we see people believing in whatever we are doing, supporting us. I think these days it’s very difficult to win in a market as competitive as the UAE. If you don’t stand for something and you need to be super sharp and this is what we try to do, they care about the health and wellness. You can see them a lot in the supermarket. When they pick the product, they turn they read the back of pack and they would be very happy to understand what they are eating. Like in our chocolate. If they turn, they will see organic coconut milk and cream, vegetable fibers, organic agave and water. All right. So this is something that they would that would really understand. So, um, so yeah, they do care about it. Sometimes you are one step ahead like no one would know what’s our 290 as the guess but but we don’t really I always believe it’s good to be one step ahead so that ultimately if regulation changes etc., we are already there. Now the ban of single use plastic, you know we started before that. You never know what might be taxed. So we are future proof from that, from that aspect. And the consumer is more educated these days, but.

Ashish Tulsian:

Does the consumer pay a premium for that?

Mazen Kanaan:

Okay, so they pay. So at the end, the most important part is the taste. All right. So if you don’t have a good taste, even promised the world they will not consume. But once you deliver on a good product, those additional things, yes, they mean to them. Now, if I want to go purely commercial, maybe so I’ll give you an example. If we use plastic, I don’t think our sales will drop alright in the short term and I think will make more margin. But then at the end we are in this for the long term and all those are investment in the brands. And when people like we talked about association, when they feel good about themselves, that they are consuming something which is compostable, they are not polluting. This in a way turn into the advantage on the brand and on the long term it will be beneficial.

Ashish Tulsian:

How do you educate them that this is compostable?

Mazen Kanaan:

So social media is our number one social platform.

Ashish Tulsian:

You talk about these things a lot?

Mazen Kanaan:

Of course, We have a lot of posts about it and we talked about, yes, it’s compostable in the brief of the promoter. When people approach our kiosk, when you are spending time to look which flavors, that is something that that there is a brief that they will mention that this is compostable. In schools we do education because we are also available in the in the schools. So there is a lot of different touchpoints that go that go into that. We are, for example, having three locations in Cup 28, you know, and this is one of the primary thing that’s driving, you know, we are so we build on all the sustainability year. It was this year of sustainability and our packaging couldn’t be fitting more this so that we drive a lot of awareness and communication around that.

Ashish Tulsian:

Let’s talk about the customer experience and I think in the in the F&B and especially, you know, your kind of product, which is a happy product, as we said, customer experience is is important. Now your customer, and this is my assumption or question, Popsicles are consumed in our heads, The picture is always for kids.

Mazen Kanaan:

Correct.

Ashish Tulsian:

But I suspect that adults consume that more than the kids. And also you are the the paymaster is the adult anyway, right?

Mazen Kanaan:

The gatekeeper we call them.

Ashish Tulsian:

Yeah, exactly. Right. So so they are the ones who are actually, you know, giving the money. How, like how do you look at customer experience at House of Pops? What what is your definition of if I had to send someone to House of Pops, what is it that they are going to experience right from the start to the end? How do you describe that experience and what are the touchpoints?

Mazen Kanaan:

Great. So this is a lot of scientific, let’s say, backed initiative is to drive this experience and to drive conversion. So ultimately, a house of pops, it’s all about health and wellness, but we don’t take ourselves too seriously. So it’s not like a Panadol, it’s not like a drug. If someone is sick, you eat this. We don’t want to be there. It’s a lifestyle brand. So we have two target the groups. We have the mom who is the gatekeeper for the kids and we have the singles, the people who are between 18 to 24 who look after themselves. They want to consume something which is which fits their lifestyle. So the way we communicate now, we are going to also launch a new campaign early next year. It will be about the lifestyle aspect of the ice cream people in their day to day life doing things they like and then consuming the product. So we drive to two levels. One is about the functional part and another one which is the lifestyle part. Now in terms of the experience, when you approach the stand first, this colorful canopy is becoming kind of a trademark for us, and people can notice that from a long distance. 

Ashish Tulsian:

How do you train your people to be excited about something like this? You know, because I think that’s the number one challenge the industry in general has, which is training of its people. And you know why I asked you, you know, how would you define the experience which you, you know, did beautifully. The problem is that the experience lies in the hands of our frontline soldiers, you know, the ones who are actually manning the booth. How do you how do you make sure and how do you measure it, if at all?

Mazen Kanaan:

So the only factor that we cannot control in our business is the the promoter, because the product is prepacked. So it’s not like, you know, we have a burger station and they need to make sure they put enough salt etc. The kiosk is already there, built. The single factor that can drive high sales or lower sales is the promoter so they are a great assets for us. So we only recruit people who are happy. Who can, you know, have a high pitched voice. They can be singing. We have some that they dance. If you go to JBR, Joseph for example, in the afternoon you’ll see him dancing and people would start dancing with them, etc.. So this is first in the recruitment. Second, they go through a thorough induction, they visit the factory, they understand everything about the brand because also we are selling a functional benefit and people need to understand what they are buying. So so we train them on the product and we train them a lot on the selling techniques. So the entire pitch from attracting people, what do I do while they are looking at the flavors? What to suggest flavors? It’s all documented because also we have a franchise business part. So we have an operation manual, more than 150 pages. That detail, we call it the journey of impulse selling because it’s a totally different approach to regular selling. And everything we know we put in this document and it’s extremely valuable from the greeting to how you serve them to what kind of best seller to suggest to up trading, to closing, to asking them to take the loyalty card, to follow us on Instagram. So that is really a very strong process. And on top of that, we have a mystery shopper. So we pay an agency to come because, yeah, I mean, they know me after some point, they know me and if someone is not active, he see me coming to a 30 meters ago, and start jumping oh natural ice cream, whatever, so it would not work. So there is a mystery shopper program. They will come and they will ask them about the product, etc. and there will be a score. And they get raised and they get benefits, they get a high score. So we are extremely careful on this one.

Ashish Tulsian:

This is brilliant. I want to double click on the mystery shopper piece. How many? Like how many? So before we get into that, how many locations do you have today? You offer your own, your own.

Mazen Kanaan:

So we have around 20. Some of them are ongoing, some of them are seasonal, six month, so around 20 different locations we have in UAE.

Ashish Tulsian:

And so how many mystery shops?

Mazen Kanaan:

So every every two weeks to one month they will get one one visits. The idea is the.

Ashish Tulsian:

So One two.

Mazen Kanaan:

1 to 2 per month, one location, one.

Ashish Tulsian:

Location per month.

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes. So the idea is more that they know that they are being audited. You know, if you put a camera, even if it is not working, it does 70% of the job. Yeah. Yeah. So and then Yeah. And then some people get 100% because it’s very difficult to get 100 because you need to welcome all the what we call perfect store. Everything is being ticked. If you get 100, you come to the head office.

Ashish Tulsian:

This is done like this is done scientifically. Is it a part of your process?

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes. Yes.

Ashish Tulsian:

You would do do it because there’s a new store.

Mazen Kanaan:

No, no, no, no. Even for our franchisees, we offer the service because at the end of the day, if you see House of Pops, you see House of Pops, our franchise or our own shops, so we are very careful of that.

Ashish Tulsian:

How are people incentivized?

Mazen Kanaan:

So if if they don’t get a good score, then, you know, they I mean, we inquired why you what’s happening? You need to adjust. We need maybe to retrain them etc. And if they get a high score, they come to the head office and we celebrate them in front of everyone. We take picture. We said that, you know, you have done great. This is also impact their bonus at the end of the month. That is one part allocated to that.

Ashish Tulsian:

So have you had any story where you know like somebody with a low Mr. shopping score finally figured that oh shit somebody is watching and and changed? Or you had to fire somebody?

Mazen Kanaan:

No we never we never reach to to that because so sometimes they are unlucky because you might have a bad day, you know, And then at the end someone comes you might not tell him Welcome to House of Pops. If you don’t say welcome to House of Pops, you lose a point. While we understand there is a human factor, but at the end, if you want to run a company, you start understanding. You cannot really deliver. But usually we don’t get very low scores, but we get, for example, 70, 75. Then we talk to them and then yeah, we usually always see a jump back because the system is pretty simple. It’s not that complicated. You just need to follow those steps.

Ashish Tulsian:

How do you listen to your customers? What are the listening channels? How do you know what your customers are saying? And for both. At a brand level. I can I while I am curious, but at a brand level, I can still imagine that collectively, you know, it may it may come to you, you know, from a lot of channels. But at a store level also. Do you obsess over that and how how do you listen to it? How do you measure?

Mazen Kanaan:

So that’s that’s a very good question. And we are very keen on I mean, the brand was built by us being present in front of the customer and we don’t want to lose that while growing. So we have this program called Triple C Consumer and Customer Connect. Every person in the head office from myself, my co-founder, the management team, they need to work to go for our market visit every week for 3 hours and it’s documented. And everyone sitting in the head office, we are around 25. They need to work. One shift per month in the shops or next to a driver or visiting with the salesman into the restaurants and they would document their visit and they will post picture because it’s very easy to disconnect because you are too busy working on an Excel sheet.

Ashish Tulsian:

You run shift every month?

Mazen Kanaan:

Every month, I run one shift. The last shift I’ve done was on Gai Beach. We just have the the hawking program and we got approval to do hawking. So I went with Marcella we put and we have a nice big ice cream, oversize ice cream and then we started doing the sales so that you understand, I mean, how heavy is it? Is he able to run for 4 to 6 hours, 7 hours? And then you see also people giving you feedback on the products. We ask them, is it the first time? No, I know I have done this. I have been there. So it’s very important that we are staying connected, but we do it in an institutional way, in a structured way, because otherwise it would not last. It we just a burst of excitement. But you can see the calendar of each one of the management team. The market visit and the shifts are scheduled.

Ashish Tulsian:

Brilliant, brilliant. How do you how do you what do you do when you get a bad review or bad  feedback? Mostly, mostly what is the channel of bad news for you?

Mazen Kanaan:

Yeah, the the, the channel where we get the most bad reviews in terms of percentage of contribution is the social media. People would post It is to expensive it’s not worth it you know so when we get bad reviews like this we we try to reach out and we have we explain that you know we don’t use sugar. We use, for example, organic agave. We don’t use A numbers. We use high percentage of fruit, we don’t use preservatives, we don’t use plastic. So we explain to them. But at the end, you cannot really satisfy everyone. You get my point. As long as the we monitor the brand scores from awareness perspective, brand equity perspective. So we run it every year. As long as we are driving things in the right way, we are confident that we are doing a good job. We don’t really stress from one bad review. That should be kind of a consistency in that for us, but so far it’s very minimal and seeing the business growing and the repeat order, etc., this this shows us that we are doing the right thing.

Ashish Tulsian:

Mazen how’s the journey being at a personal level? You know, you started your business in 2018. This is still very, very recent and I think COVID also happened in between. Right? So I mean, I would I would rather say that COVID accelerated the journey by one and a half years for everyone. So that made your five years even technically shorter, Right? How has it been personally, you know, what are the highs and the lows?

Mazen Kanaan:

So we talked a lot about the excitement part of it, but it was not easy at all, especially one thing that makes it even more complicated that my co-founder is my wife. All right. I mean, it’s great, but at the same time, there are some challenges that come with that because we built this from scratch and the first initial days were not easy for her. Actually, what happened is that after I left Unilever and I started this business with her, it required a lot of investment because of CapEx. So I then got another interim job for another three years. Meanwhile, double hatting between the ice cream and this new job. And I was really.

Ashish Tulsian:

2018 to 2021?

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes exactly 2019 to 2021, 22, 2022, initially of 2022. And whatever I was making, I was like throwing there throwing there throwing there. And at that time my wife was driving the business on the ground. And for example, like we we all recall those initial days which she would use to drive the truck herself to the factory, load it, bring it back. And this had a toll on our relationship because we had just started the relationship and immediately started the business. So all this bling bling part of Dubai was was not part of the of the equation for three years. We were working nonstop. We barely traveled. Of course, we considered like a first world problem, not traveling. But when you are in Dubai, when you are in your early thirties.

Ashish Tulsian:

And you know, so you also have Instagram and you’re you’re watching everyone.

Mazen Kanaan:

Exactly. So this is part of the expectation, too. Yeah. You know, live a nice life when all your friends are partying come. No, we cannot. We used to wake up in the weekend early to go to the right market, collect the stocks come. So it took a lot of of effort to maintain a healthy relationship where there isn’t much enough time for us to develop it. We started getting a bit more relaxed after three years when we started having a bigger team and also other challenges came into the picture where manage working together and being husband and wife and the mixing different hats and who’s managing what and at how the home bringing some of the issues at home. It was not easy, but I think we figured it out along the way. We’re still figuring it out. But but yeah, it’s with time, it comes naturally, but it’s not easy at all.

Ashish Tulsian:

What do you think is the is the secret sauce of maintaining that balance? 

Mazen Kanaan:

I’ll tell you the things that that you can do on a you can say on a podcast, but coming to life, it’s very difficult. But I will tell you what I think can help is to split between work and if, let’s say, I mean, we could be in a meeting. I have views, she has different views and I she might have a view that the way I handle my reply to her views is not appropriate. So this will come the House at 6-7 p.m. and you look it’s very difficult to to split it. It’s it’s unreasonable because at the end it’s it’s your baby. It’s like so much you would think, but as much as possible do that. Another thing we did that I think worked pretty well. It’s funny and it’s not but you need to take some some measures. So when we want to we booked time for ourselves. So on the outlook calendar if you go you will see for example on Tuesday I have a meeting request from her from 7 to 08:30 for dinner somewhere. You know, there is not much space for impulsive. Let’s go there. I have a reunion with my alumni at school. So that is if you open her outlook on Saturday at ten from 10 to 1130. It is book there. So we book our our time together and at some time yeah you need to completely disconnect we go on vacation we cannot afford very long vacation but we can go an extended weekend. And I think one key thing is that to split the responsibilities initially you cannot. But now it’s clear she’s managing the factory and the manufacturing. I am managing the operations. So there is definitely interaction but much less than Yeah.

Ashish Tulsian:

What what do you what do you do? How is the deadlock resolved? Let’s say there is a genuine opinion on the business, both passionately thinking about it and there’s a deadlock, real deadlock, not really the fight of egos, but genuinely the fight of ideas and opinions and action. How? What is that? What is the resolution?

Mazen Kanaan:

We go to the board. So this is how we solve it. What I’m saying it should be red. She said it should be blue. I give my argument. She give her arguments. We feel 5 minutes from now we’re going to start fighting. We stop. From previous experience. We know that, you know, this is going into somewhere where it’s going to be a fight. Let’s go to the board. The first 5 minutes. Okay. Let’s go to the board. That is a bit of tension, but then. Okay, fine.

Ashish Tulsian:

What kind of board is that?

Mazen Kanaan:

Like our senior management team. So we are seven people and this is also really.

Ashish Tulsian:

Are these external?

Mazen Kanaan:

No they are employees. So we let’s say the senior manager, we have seven people and they are have extensive experience. So we go there and we present and we try as much as possible not to pitch which one’s thoughts are what because then to to reduce the bias.

Ashish Tulsian:

Red pill or blue pill.

Mazen Kanaan:

Yeah. Without them there are two views which one. And then people are of course it’s also difficult because from their side they start to figure out okay is it Mazen’s idea or Marcella? And but as much as possible, we try to build a company, a structure and not really I can I never come. No. Today we are going to launch a banana boat. It doesn’t happen like this and I don’t like it to be like that. So we try to structure even our discussions and our different views in a way that gets dealt in the multinationals.

Ashish Tulsian:

But you were, you know, you were in a in a job until 2018, and then from 2019 to 22 almost, you said that you were moonlighting. You the job was taken to make sure that you can sustain. So it’s been so you have had, like I will call it, like parachuting into entrepreneurship because, you know, you you took the jump in. I’m sure. How scary was that and how? So I generally feel that people, almost everyone underestimates the change of emotions, the the chemical changes in the brain. The day you actually jump out of the window, like till the time you’re on the edge, you have the you have all the emotions, right? But when you jump during the jump, it’s a very different emotion. What was your experience in 18 when you jumped first?

Mazen Kanaan:

So initially I was I was very excited. I was very excited again. We talked about it in the beginning. This yeah, the foolishness of and then because when you are driven so initially I had some savings so those savings give you some security. But then once you start every month seeing that irrespective of how much you have, if this going down, this is not a feeling you are used to for the last, especially given my background. And you know, in Lebanon, it’s all about security, security, security, because we like security. Even when you start as a kid, I mean, it’s very funny. So a regular discussion in a Lebanese family. We say, listen, you need to go. You need to study well to get good grades so that you get into a good university, you get a good job, and you buy a house. So for us, buying a house is the ultimate dream because this is, for us a security. And how who will marry you if you don’t have a house? You know, so and look at your neighbor to see the job he has now. He bought the house. It’s like everything security.

Ashish Tulsian:

It’s very similar in India. 

Mazen Kanaan:

So I was talking to a friend from Germany. She was telling me, you know, we can live in a rented place. No. How come you’re not secure? You don’t. You don’t. I know.

Ashish Tulsian:

I think it’s developing, I think the developing world versus developed world. Yeah, exactly. It’s a very different it’s a mindset thing, right? Because even in India, in the urban population, for example, I have a lot, you know, you know, even me, I never cared for, you know, that this is not making to my list because, you know, it was that I mean, I was born in privilege. But then at the same time, the Indian mindset doesn’t matter what privilege.

Mazen Kanaan:

Irrespective yeah.

Ashish Tulsian:

It’s still there, right? It’s still. You need to have these check boxes. But I can clearly see that it’s changing, especially in the urban kids. Right. Because because those checklists, you know, don’t matter anyway. But I really do. I relate what you’re saying. Yeah.

Mazen Kanaan:

So then given all of that, yeah, your in stats going down, what did you do, etc.. And also the discussion with your parents. Mazen, you are doing a very good career. Why do you want to leave? Are you sure you have end of service, you have insurance, what are you going to do? Etc.. But yeah, so that is a bit shaking and sometimes you would convince yourself, No, no, it’s going fine. It’s going fine. So that was a tricky and like.

Ashish Tulsian:

But that’s but that’s before you jump right the day you start you actually leave that job and you actually start right the day you actually wake up and realize, oh my, you know, I really don’t have an office to go and I am the shit is real. Like I’m on on my own. Was that a transition period for you before you jump to another job?

Mazen Kanaan:

Um, no. So it was not really driven. I’ll tell you when I like, I was always very excited. I was like, not really worried to an extent that to find another job. But I thought that with this new job I can grow at a much faster rate. So it was more driven by fast forwarding this and having a partner that can handle well. And also the job was not that demanding in terms of because I came from a super demanding marketing company where I was trained like super efficient and I went to another job. I was in marketing, but whatever. I mean, the requirement per week was not but few hours and wow, it’s amazing what you are doing.

Ashish Tulsian:

So the you were the Unilever OG. Yeah, anything that comes out of your mouth is golden. So everybody’s scared of touching you.

Mazen Kanaan:

Exactly. And you use some few words like, you know, we need to drive penetration by increasing the brand equity. I say, I.

Ashish Tulsian:

Figured I figured that was the kind of job you landed while moonlighting.

Mazen Kanaan:

So then because yeah, I could not have taken a job where I needed like in L’Oreal or Nestle, etc.. So so it was an appropriate job. So I said, okay, with this, I can really drive things for it. But then it reached a place where at the end, if you are really driving the brand, you become the image of the brand. You cannot drive an image of it, but you are not very confident that you have another thing. So this is where I stopped. But then still then, yes, we were a bit more advanced. But cash flow is everything in start ups and we had some very tough times. We still have till today because we keep reinvesting, reinvesting in the brand. And there is, I believe, kind of a tolerance, that change from people. I don’t mind living on the edge. Other people, unless they have four months of covered expenses. Sometimes I manage two weeks one week, so it changes from one person to another. So those we still have those moments because also until today, we never we did not raise any, any money. So yeah, so it’s all self-funded.

Ashish Tulsian:

That’s that’s actually quite amazing. Absolutely amazing. Your wife, you know, running the entire manufacturing, did she have a background in that. What what what’s her background?

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes, she’s from Costa Rica actually. We met in Thailand. She came to Dubai. We got married in Lebanon.

Ashish Tulsian:

You met in Thailand?

Mazen Kanaan:

We met in Thailand. I was on a business trip. She was on vacation there.

Ashish Tulsian:

I love Costa Rica.

Mazen Kanaan:

Yeah, It’s a beautiful country.

Ashish Tulsian:

By the way, when you said her name in my head, I was wondering, is it a Lebanese name? No, not. Yeah, it’s a Marcella. Yeah, it’s quite a quite a Latin. Perfect. Okay.

Mazen Kanaan:

Yeah. Actually, it’s funny. When she came from Costa Rica to Lebanon, the first time to visit on the custom control, they told her which country you’re coming from. She told them from Costa Rica. They said, no which country, which country. Because I don’t know. A country like Germany, France, because that’s a country. So it’s something very, very far from where we are. People don’t really know. Yeah, it was it was funny. But yeah, she studied the culinary arts, so she had not ice cream, but she has something for for food. And she’s very innovative and she developed the entire range and from scratch, like doing a trial and errors. So her role was key in landing the products.

Ashish Tulsian:

And how like, how did you so you basically made her a girlfriend and also recruited her into the business.

Mazen Kanaan:

We got together in a relationship let’s say.

Ashish Tulsian:

Yeah I mean tell us the truth.

Mazen Kanaan:

Truth. Yes the truth. Are we recording?

Ashish Tulsian:

It. We can use it for a ransom.

Mazen Kanaan:

So so no in Thailand. Yes. No I, I mean I was there and I saw her and I said. Wow, she’s so beautiful. And I made the approach and we started talking to each other. And then she decided to visit one time, then another two weeks, then other one month. And we ended up.

Ashish Tulsian:

She was Visiting from Costa Rica?

Mazen Kanaan:

Because, I mean, she was going from Thailand. She was going back to France to work in a distant village to have an internship where she would learn how to bake bread with a family like something like in Lebanon, you would be classified as a failure. What is your job? What is your insurance going doing bread? It’s very, very exotic for us. We don’t have this, you know, take a break. And so she was going there and she passed by. She stayed one week and we stayed in touch. And then the relationship developed. So, yeah, she was my girlfriend and then she we I proposed in Lebanon and then we got married one year and a half ago in Lebanon as well. It was beautiful.

Ashish Tulsian:

One and a half year ago?

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes. Yes. In July 2022.

Ashish Tulsian:

Nice. Right. So. So you got a you got a business before wife?

Mazen Kanaan:

Yes, Yes, before wife. But it was funny again when she came so at that time, I was living in the Palm in Oceana, a very fancy place. And she came after three months. We started the business. I left my job, we moved to JVC in a very tiny place, and I then took a studio to help set the factory. And she was, Man, this is not the package I signed into.

Ashish Tulsian:

But you had to tell her no, that, you know, that was marketing. This is the product.

Mazen Kanaan:

Exactly. And this is this is what you get. So it was a bit weird, but but this is again, I learned a lot about her. What is important to her. Because other one, I mean, any other girl who was not serious would have left like man and I’m I’m that I’m not. So we stayed one year in JVC, then we moved to JLT. And then two years ago, we moved again to Oceana in the same building.

Ashish Tulsian:

Oh, you’re back.

Mazen Kanaan:

We’re back. It’s been two years. And so it was a nice. But yeah, at some point you need to to cut your cost. So yeah, it was, it was a nice a nice a journey. We have a lot of memories on how we. Yeah. Downgraded then upgraded again and um yeah.

Ashish Tulsian:

I think living on the edge I feel that that’s the I think it’s a drug like if you, if you are, if you’re a junkie you’re a junkie. Yes. You know so when you, when you said that you know it’s, it’s not that you know, you even not raise funds. I can I can totally understand the fact that, you know, living on the edge also becomes a part of the experience. Although you’re not trying that in your head. You’re telling yourself, no, no, no, no, no. We will, of course, get, you know, a little away from it. But then your ambitious ambition, you know, kicks again. Where are you taking this? What’s happening with the with the business now? What what’s your not your plan, but what’s what’s the ambition?

Mazen Kanaan:

Okay, so now I think after five years of operations, we are more confident than ever that we have something that can really work really well. Uh, so when I look at my management team, they are coming from Nestle, from Baskin Robbins, from Unilever, from Iffco. So we have all the talents, we have our brand that’s working. We have very relevant experience. Nothing stops us from really competing with all the big ones. We just need the right funding, making sure we have the right investments, but we are very confident that we can do it. And now it’s about expansion, it’s not about trial and error, etc. Now the entire proposition is there. So we are expanding and three things are going to drive the business. One is building further the brand and expanding. Now we have only pops, we are going to have cups, bites, scooping. So the entire.

Ashish Tulsian:

Do you scoop right now?

Mazen Kanaan:

Five years we stayed with one with one product. And I think this is extremely important because you need to be sure. Now that we say, okay, it’s working. We are expanding on the brand second footprint expansion and through distribution contract and franchise contract, we have now franchisees in Saudi, in Bahrain. Yes, in Saudi we have an agreement to open for our master franchise and initial agreement to open 80 outlets in the coming five years in. Kuwait It’s happening soon in Qatar also. So expanding through the geography can really drive the growth and all the expansion or the investment. Initially, we are really they are all fixed costs. This expansion is not going to cost us more CapEx, etc. So that’s why we are living on the edge. But we know that now it’s all about the top line. If I grow like this, I will get 60% of it in my bottom line. So we are very excited about that. We are also seeding operations in Europe. We have booked for SIAL in October 2024, will be also in Sea Gap in in January for the Ice Cream exhibition, so that in two or three years when we are ready to expand, we’ll have some information about the market, the performance, etc. So like it’s growth now, growth.

Ashish Tulsian:

What’s your what’s your barrier to having this kind of steroidal, you know, distribution and growth? For example, do you need to put a manufacturing unit in Saudi or do you like all you need to do a manufacturing set up if you have to expand it?

Mazen Kanaan:

I don’t need any manufacturer to set up the factory that we have established has ample capacity. It can produce ten times more.

Ashish Tulsian:

You’re going to transport it from here.

Mazen Kanaan:

This is we are already shipping to Saudi Arabia now for some reason, after some time Saudi can become bigger, but at least for the coming two years, I have a good, good capacity here.

Ashish Tulsian:

So the shipping cost is not really an impediment to this?

Mazen Kanaan:

No, and we have high value item. So then, you know, you can ship and like in a container you can have around 80,000 pieces and a value. Let’s say if it is at $5, this is like almost $400,000 worth of of products in as a retail value. Mm. So, so yeah, all what we need is the right partners now in each place. So this is why we are excited. It would not it just you do an agreement today I was telling you I just came we have signed an agreement with a local distributor and we are going from 40 shops to 1000. Our incremental investment for this, it’s nothing. It just about manufacturing the product. We don’t need additional senior management. So we have yes, our costs are now managed. We are on the on the edge. But anything from here should be on. Yeah, should be good, should be really good.

Ashish Tulsian:

Why didn’t you raise funds? Why did you not raise funds so far?

Mazen Kanaan:

Raise funds so far. So as long as I am able to to manage on my own, I would I would not consider that. We were able to get funds, but not equity. So one of the good things is that if you have if you have shops and you have sales on your credit card, you can get loan on POS and those are very low interest rate. And because of our volume we are able to get funding from there. Now we would consider a strategic investment. If there is, we don’t look only at the money, right? We look at how can this partner open things for us. And I think I would be more open to raising funds maybe in two years time, because there very low hanging fruit. So I don’t need now investment at a low valuation before I do my distribution. Let me do my distribution in the region. Let me open those shops through franchise. That can happen very fast and then you’ll have a very strong valuation. And then I would consider additional things and it’s tricky. I don’t pretend to that this is the right answer because I always have, in the back of my mind, the shadow of waking up one day, driving on the road. I see Nestle who just bought a start up, or they have launched 100% natural pops and it will be everywhere. And I would hate myself and I say, okay, are you happy you want to keep your valuation? You are zero now because they have kicked you everywhere. But that’s why we keep investing in the brand. And my aim is for all those multinationals, when they want to consider this, they would say, You know what, let’s approach House of Pops. They have already done this. So we are running as fast as possible.

Ashish Tulsian:

You can be that startup.

Mazen Kanaan:

And I will be that thing. So. So yeah, you take some bets, you know, you take some bets. Let’s see. The future will tell.

Ashish Tulsian:

That is that is absolutely brilliant that I and I not only relate to that fully, but I love that absolutely. I read this thing long back. Some of the inside of product is king distribution is god.

Mazen Kanaan:

Mm

Ashish Tulsian:

And and I think and I think that’s that’s something that I, you know, I’m in the tech business, I’m in the software business, but I can definitely tell you that, you know, my learning of last, you know, ten, 12 years of, you know, running tech business and I mean, this business, especially a tech product business, is that that distribution solves all sins. Like you can you can make a lot of mistakes and you’ll get another chance. But if your if you have good product and you don’t distribute it, if you’re not innovative about distribution, then you’re screwed because then you’re then your echo chamber, your loops, your your feedback loops will become so short that you will start thinking about your own reality as the ultimate reality. While you know new markets, etc. are nothing but like the like breaking echo chambers, like you you go to a new market, you can fail or you can succeed. But if you succeed, you’re also going to get insights which may not be available in the home market because home market had a lot of biases.

Mazen Kanaan:

So true.

Ashish Tulsian:

Have you experienced so far any market or any experiment where you’re bias got broken, where you felt that oh a customer is a certain way or a product in a certain way or a market is a certain way? And then last three years or five years, you felt, Hey, you know what? You know, I was in this market all the time. I was managing ice cream business for Unilever long enough. But there are one or two or three new insights or feelings that have really changed.

Mazen Kanaan:

Of course, of course. I mean, we failed also big times on an on assumptions that um, that we have uh, built upon. Like for example, I’ll give you an example. So our product, uh, because of the price point appeals to higher SCC class. So we said, okay, you know what, The IFC is a perfect place because all those people who are in the corporate, they want to stay fit, etc., their image would be perfect. So we opened a shop there. It failed miserably. We closed it. Although the rent was very low, we said, We are going. And some of my people in the team, they told me like, I don’t think it will do well. But then it turned out that those people are our major consumers, but not when they are at work because at five everyone leaves and then at night they will order online on the weekend they will go and they will take their kids and they will only buy from House of Pops. But on Monday at their at their lunch break. No it’s they are not in the mood. So then it’s not only about your target consumer, it’s about the moment of consumption or that of that consumer. So we had a lot of learning on these and we keep learning by the day. Um, so yeah, that’s, that’s one example of something that we assumed. Okay, I mean, be with your target consumer, but then at the right time, in the right moment, in the right place, not only like whatever they are, so.

Ashish Tulsian:

But how do you know that they were your consumers and did you use that insight in some other way like you used to? Let’s say a brand yourself somewhere around the IFC or like a similar place?

Mazen Kanaan:

We know that because we Interact, for example, in the right markets, you know, so this is very much a place for people who purchase organic products, etc. And we we talk to them. We understand also their social profile from the Instagram, from the linkedin and etc.. So we know that they they put and also online you can track where your orders are coming from. So around that area, Business Bay, the IFC, Downtown, we got a lot of orders but yeah you need to be then when they are working they are they are not in the in that mood. Maybe also the product. Maybe it’s a popsicle. Maybe if we have cups it might be a bit more feasible. So there are things. But one thing I wanted to comment on when you said that a distribution important. So we track also the brand health, pyramids where we would understand. So it tells you how many people know about you and then out of these, how many tried you and how many have ever tried you, how many tried you in the last six months? In the last three months? And who’s your your like your who are the consumer that have house of pops as their main brands. So what we figured out is that people know about us. All right. But a very small proportion have tried us, but whoever has tried us, the conversion is very high like they will be like 80% will continue and 70% in the last and maybe 50% would like that. So then the challenge is how can you increase your trial base? And by increasing your distribution, you will increase your trial base and this will drive all the way up to the pyramid. So this is spot on what you mentioned.

Ashish Tulsian:

Mazen what do you do for your personal growth. How do you how do you keep yourself nourished? Mental knowledge? How do you fill that gap for yourself?

Mazen Kanaan:

So I have a couple of things I do. One, on the knowledge spot. I found podcasts to be a really great way for for knowledge. I think whatever you have also started is very inspiring, and I follow that as well. Um, also from the international podcast I listen to almost all the 84 seasons of business wars it’s an amazing podcast. I don’t know if you had the chance, they would take two brands and they are fighting and it’s really it speaks to me deeply for fun part because you need to disconnect by far. The number one is Padel, I am an avid paddle player. I play four times a week. I just got a new racket yesterday, so I was so happy. And then it’s very funny. Like, you know, I have been talking about this business, I don’t know since the beginning how important this is my baby. But if I have a game at 6:30, at 5:30, even if you are discussing the biggest deal, I’m out of the office, I, I leave. I tell them I’m sorry because it’s really extremely important for your wellbeing and only on the courts. Only on the court. When I enter for those 90 minutes, I forget everything. It’s me and the ball and the competition. Everything is on My life is put on hold. I don’t even care about House of Pops about anything. I just want to play. And this is.

Ashish Tulsian:

That’s. That’s Zen, that’s meditative.

Mazen Kanaan:

It’s unbelievable And it passes like that. Yesterday, for example, we went from 8:30. We play in Danube. It’s like this huge white club that from 8:30 until 11, we were playing nonstop because no one was there after 10:30. So we had the so we continued. But it’s amazing. The other thing we’re just discussing, I’ve started developing a hobby for coffee, making dialing espresso, and it’s very nice. I do it in the morning and it’s, you know, it’s routine and it’s nice so those are the two things that really, um, yeah, that keep my, my, my health and mental wellness which is extremely, extremely important. Mental wellness.

Ashish Tulsian:

This is a great conversation. There’s a lot to learn. It’s absolutely inspirational. And I think what makes it beautiful is that, you know, you’re you’re still at the start of your journey, but still far ahead from where you started. I am absolutely excited for what the future holds for you and how this develops further. Thank you.

Mazen Kanaan:

Thank you so much for hosting me. It was a pleasure.

Ashish Tulsian:

Thank you.