Ashish Tulsian: Hey all, welcome to Restrocast. Today, I’m with George Kunnappally. He’s the managing director of Nando’s UAE. My conversation with George was really interesting, was entertaining, but also gave me a lot of lot to thought about, a lot to think about. You will. In George. You are going to see somebody who, in his self-awareness, claims that he’s not cut out to be an entrepreneur who does not want to, you know, bear the risk of building an enterprise from scratch. But at the same time, you see somebody who was extremely entrepreneurial as well as looks at the business like a business owner. You would also see shades of somebody who is who claims that he does not possess any special skills, but at the same time has deep appreciation for people who bring the acquired skills to the table, Who is people centric and who also secretly desires to be a criminal lawyer. And it is for you to find out in this conversation why I enjoyed my conversation with him, and I’m sure you will. So welcome, George. Thank you for doing this. Welcome to Restrocast.  

George Kunnappally:  Thank you for having me. And it’s an absolute pleasure to talk to you, Ashish.

Ashish Tulsian: George, so we all know that you are you know, you’re the one behind running and making Nando’s successful. You’re doing a great job there. But I would like to know and I would like to immediately dive into where it all started. So what’s, what’s your background? Where are you coming from and I’m not talking about, you know, your academics, or your but how did it, how did this happen? Because I also believe that a lot of people, you know, don’t enter hospitality without a little bit of craziness in their head or it can be an accident. I have been an accidental, you know, hospitality or restaurant entrepreneur. But what’s your story?

George Kunnappally: Well, if there’s one word I have to use to define my journey so far, that would be serendipity. And it’s not just a single instance. It’s like a chain of events, all of which enabled me to get to this point. And I start from the time I was completing schooling in Thiruvananthapuram and my class was divided into engineering prospects and medicine prospects, and there were five or six of us, including my twin brother, who looks exactly like me, the identical who wanted to do something else that would get us away from our homes and make us financially independent at the earliest. So engineering in those days would take 5 to 7 years. And then you’re still hoping that the stream that you picked up five years ago is still in demand by the time you finish the program.

Ashish Tulsian:  The scope is there or not.

George Kunnappally: So you probably when you were entering the course, engineering telecommunication was the hottest stream. While by the time you passed out, chemical engineering could have been or would have been the hottest stream. So suddenly you are. Oh, my God. Now I need to upskill again. And medicine was also running into seven years and eight years. And then you are still only in MBBS and you still need to do MD or DM the first years and it was still long before you were independent financially or even professionally. And that’s the time when our late father took us on a trip visiting all the major hotels and resorts in Kerala. It was one of his professional assignments and that gave us a window into the hospitality industry and we were quite enamored by the discipline, by the glamor and the tastefulness of the hotels and how everybody was always at their best in terms of service, putting in long hours. But they were also happy doing it. And it was something very different. And we came back from the trip and we explored how do you get into the industry? And there was a national entrance program that the Institute of Hotel Management and Catering Technology, which we appeared for and we cracked it and we got admissions into the institute in Kovalam and those were the days when you had this debate of whether a degree program is better than a diploma program. And in those days with the diploma program, you could indirectly do your Master’s. You had to still do a program side by side. So then we moved into Christ College, which is now Christ University in Bengaluru. They had a bachelor and hotel management program. So both me and my brother joined, both of us enrolled and we completed that program and were hired on campus by Taj. So, my first deployment or assignment was at the Fisherman School in Chennai.

Ashish Tulsian: Oh, nice. Yeah. 

George Kunnappally:  So I worked there for about two years and.

Ashish Tulsian: That’s a good property.

George Kunnappally:  Yes, it’s a fabulous property. But I realized pretty early that hotel is not my cup of tea.

Ashish Tulsian: This is which year?

George Kunnappally: 97 to 98. 99. Yeah. It wasn’t the long hours or the location that worked against my ambition or my aspirations. It was the fact that the growth curve inside the hotel industry, the time from being a supervisory trainee to being the general manager of the property, in an ideal world would be about 10 to 15 years. And I was like, I don’t have that much time. And pretty early every assignment that I was in or I was working for, I was always interested in how long would it take to get across that table and call that ambition or aspiration or genuine interest in knowing the career growth curve. Oh, I got to work with some fabulous people and they were generous and benevolent. And it’s important because a lot of line managers are not expected to be benevolent. They don’t need to share their knowledge or they don’t need to make it easier for you because probably it wasn’t easy for them. And that’s something I have taken with me all along that my line managers were extremely generous. What took them five years to learn? They tried to impart that to me or transfer that knowledge to me in five months or two years. And I’ve been fortunate that way. So I got an opportunity to come to Dubai because one of my first cousins here said, Why don’t you come down again? I mentioned serendipity because it was initially offered to my brother and he said, I’m not interested in going to Dubai. So then it came and he asked me if Jules was not interested, Would you like to come? Said, Why not? I knew nothing about Dubai other than the fact that a lot of people are doing well here and the quality of life is good and it is safe.

Ashish Tulsian: And that. Was back in like 2000. 

George Kunnappally: 98. 99. And oh. So there is history to this aspiration that the Middle East is the better quality of life. It’s better money because we were born and raised in Tripoli, in Libya in the seventies. My parents were both medical professionals Working for the hospitals in Tripoli. So once you are exposed to a foreign lifestyle or the quality of life, then even when you come back to India, you’re always looking for the next chance to get out. Or at least that’s been the case with me. Nothing adds up. And you’re always comparing and it’s for good or for bad. 

Ashish Tulsian: Yeah. 

George Kunnappally: I was so happy to land in Dubai in 99 and in those days the main newspapers, Khaleej Times and Gulf News used to have an entire ten, 12, 15 page pullout called Appointments. I’m like, wow, so many jobs. And many of them were restaurant managers and catering managers and restaurant captains. And I was still thinking that I would get a job in a hotel. So I constantly applied to all the Hiltons and the Hyatts and the Intercontinental Hotel. And I have some 23 odd rejection letters. 

Ashish Tulsian: Wow. 

George Kunnappally: And all this. 

Ashish Tulsian: What did you do? 

George Kunnappally: So some of them just said, we have it on file. Your profile doesn’t match. And some of the interviews that went so badly that I was beginning to think, am I ever going to make it? And in those days, my drop off and pick up point for my cousins and me was a building called the Al Ain Center in Computer Plaza, and I used to always stand in front of the restaurant called Subway, and I used to think it’s a QSR. I’m cut for five star deluxe properties. I’m going to join a five star deluxe property. And towards the end of my three month visit Visa, I thought, Subway I hadn’t tried for  a restaurant manager. I applied not knowing that this is that Subway store because they were individually owned. I get a call from my future employer Mr. Mahesh Shahdadpuri  and I meet him in his office and in the first few exchanges he says, My restaurant is in Al Ain Center. It’s like, okay, I have seen it, I have been there. And it was a week within which I landed that job and that was my first permanent job in the UAE. I set it off as. 

Ashish Tulsian: It was meant to be. Are you are you standing there with us? Three months, three months? 

George Kunnappally: I’ve been in front of that restaurant and not ever considering dropping off my CV in that restaurant. And all along they were looking to hire a new restaurant manager. And the restaurant manager who left that job is today one of my closest friends. He was my first. 

Ashish Tulsian: You replaced him? 

George Kunnappally:

I replaced him. He did a fantastic handover and ever since we have been the best of friends. And he moved on and he started his own restaurant, kitchen equipment, business, and we have worked together multiple times and he continues to be a friend and a well-wisher. And it’s one of those relationships I cherish and again, coming back to chance, playing an important role, I saw an ad for Bateaux Dubai in the newspaper when it was just starting the project. here. Bateaux Dubai is a joint venture between Sodexo, which is Bateaux Parisien  and the Dutco group of hotels, that which is the Jebel Ali International Hotels.  So they were building a vessel here. It was a restaurant cruise boat, similar to the ones in Paris or London or New York. And I thought the ad and I said, this is not for me because I don’t have fine dining experience. So I did not apply. And this friend of mine picked up the newspaper and came to me and said, No, you need to apply to this. I said, It’s just a waste of time. Look at the six, seven, eight things they have asked,  and I don’t tick any one of them. 

Ashish Tulsian: What? What was it? 

George Kunnappally: Fine dining experience, several years and you must have been in not in QSR and you should have been running a bigger business. It’s a 260 seater river cruise with licenses and I am running 2 to 3 subway stores in Dubai and it’s such a small business. So I personally felt it’s just not going to work.  The surprise is when I got a call from but otherwise the office and Mr. Patrice also was the managing partner at that time, called me and said, Can we meet? And I thought, he must be meeting 50 candidates and it’s just a tick box. So I went and met him and three meetings later he said, You don’t tick all the boxes, but I still want to take a chance with you. I said it’s a massive project. You really want to do that? He said, I know what I am hiring because I’ve done this a lot in my life now. He was certainly a very senior person, so I joined and it was an extremely interesting opportunity. So it was the first time I was working outside my comfort zone and the vessel was built here. Most of the stakeholders were French. We had a Moroccan sales and marketing manager. We had our HR head from Seychelles. We had projects head and the kitchen head from France. So and about 20, 25 different nationalities. We hired everybody here. I was managing operations, technical entertainment and the kitchen. It was surreal, but it was my first taste of something bigger than a QSR. 

Ashish Tulsian: Oh, way bigger, actually.

George Kunnappally: Yeah, way bigger than a QSR. And I never expected it to happen, but that gave me the confidence to actually look at bigger things. And while I was in Subway or probably while I was in Bateaux Dubai, there was a newspaper article about Al Madani group signing up. Charley’s Philly Steaks. And I’m like, This is so close to Subway. So if I am going to reach out to them, I’m going to get this job. And I applied. I actually didn’t apply. I found Mr. Madani’s email address, who was the chairman and CEO, and I emailed him my resume saying, I am the man you’re looking for. And I was shell shocked when I didn’t get a callback or even an email acknowledgment. So I continued with Bateaux Dubai and then Bateaux Dubai changed hands, and I took up an interim consulting role with Mr. Ismail Takriti. And as fate would have it, Samari, Samari’s  local sponsor was also Al Madani but related to the Mohammed Al Mad, so Samari was not taking off. I got a call from Mr. Madini’s office about one and a half years after I had applied for the role, saying, can you meet with us? And I said, What happened? You guys having taken off or you hired somebody and that didn’t work out. I said, can you please come and meet us? And I was in Ibn Battuta mall buying a suitcase to relocate to Kuwait for Nathan’s. 

Ashish Tulsian: Oh, yeah.

George Kunnappally: And Nathan’s had given me a US visa to go for the franchisee training. But the Kuwait based Nathan’s business was still to step forward. Three steps backward. They were still not clear, should there shouldn’t be. But I was ready to fly up and I met the right hand man of you can say of Mr. Madani, you and the initial conversation, he says, Do you have a US visa? And I said, yes. He calls Mr. Madani. And says that this gentleman in front of me has a US visa. He can fly tomorrow to complete the franchise training program, which is a book asset for taking the franchise forward. So the US visa, which I got from. His. Employer, finally became useful to land this job because I was immediately taken to meet Mr. Madani. And in an hour’s time I was employed and in a week’s time I left for the US, for the Charley’s Philly Steaks franchise training. So if it is not a chance and destiny you wouldn’t really be able to connect all these dots. Oh, so I have another interesting story. Let’s park Charley’s Philly Steaks here. I had just resigned from Subway after three years, and I was taking up an interim assignment in Kampala to set up an Indian restaurant for a known operator of mine. We were neighbors in Al Ain Center because my New Zealand migration was ready. I had finished the medical such as. Just waiting for the stamp and the Subway. guys in New Zealand had told me that if you come in we can find a spot for you. And I was single at that time and during the notice period, two weeks into my notice period, I am going into my corporate head office and I meet this lady who has been there for more than three months. But that’s the first time I saw her in the office. Now, I go to the office almost every week and I fell in love. It took me two weeks to basically propose. She said no. Then she said yes. And I said, If you say no, I’m going to Kampala. If you say yes, I’ll find a way to stay back. Whatever happens to New Zealand. Let it go and start from zero. She later said yes. So all in a matter of like my notice period is coming to an end for I need to go back and tell my employer, Mr. Mahesh, that, wow, you know what, boss? I decided to stay. I stayed one more year and they were gracious and obviously they didn’t know that. I found out. The real. Reason. But later, when they attended my wedding, they said, When did this start? And I said, When you first met us in the Subway store, they all used to come to lunch because our offices were closed. But so even my bosses used to come down for lunch and they used to wonder, what’s this lady every other day in the store? And they used to think, okay, it’s close by. Everybody comes for lunch. So it could be a coincidence. But now when they look back, they’re like, Oh, okay, we facilitated this. And I’m like, yes, you did. So my life has been entirely about unexpected circumstances, leading to something extremely helpful and joyful for me all my life. I mean, all my working life and my personal life are extremely intertwined, and some of the best friendships I’ve made are from my work because for me, I really don’t understand the work life balance argument because for me, life is work. Yeah, 

 

Ashish Tulsian: I think that that that statement is, is, is not only phenomenal, we talked about it and I would love to actually, you know, talk more about that. That’s so true. I think, you know, I actually I wonder this often and especially nowadays when you go to LinkedIn or, you know, last two years of Covid people went through so much of it, a mental, you know, mental health issues, etc., that probably I think people are always going through all that stuff. But I think during COVID times, it just blew up in like in communication. And, you know, and every time I see people talking about how to get work life balance, I’m like, oh my God, they’re not going to find this in this lifetime because because if your work is so is so bad that you’re not able to call it life. Then. Then, then you’re screwed basically 100%. 

George Kunnappally: And if you’re happy with what you’re doing or if you’re So, I’m somebody who wakes up every day and craves to go to work. And that’s not because I am running away from home. It’s because that’s very much a part of. Who I am running away from home. Get out of it for me. Wherever I have the flexibility, wherever I’ve worked, I’ve had the flexibility to get out of the office and go for a drive to clear your head or meet a friend.

Ashish Tulsian: During the day. 

George Kunnappally: During office hours, during weekdays. So that also gives me the flexibility to attend office calls at 8 p.m. or move my dinner beyond and take a call or finish emails at five in the morning because I’m not really differentiated between the work part and the life part, because work is life and a large part of my stakeholders in my life are from my place of work. I met my wife in my place of work, my closest friends, if you can say four or five of them, are all from work So, work has probably given me more than what any other avenue has given me. 

Ashish Tulsian: George, as in, you know, as an, as an operator. And you, you know, you very humbly mentioned, you know, multiple times that, you know, entrepreneur versus a salaried professional. And I and I appreciate that nuance because because of course, like you are, you know, I’m sure life occurs way differently to these, you know, two individuals. And I’ve always been an entrepreneur. I mean, I started my first venture when I was in college, so technically nobody gave me a job ever. But, you know, within that, I think I can tell you that I’ve grown, you know, as an entrepreneur or as a person to honestly, you know, appreciate the entrepreneurs, you know, people who are actually entrepreneurial, who, you know, to me today, the definition of entrepreneurship is, you know, living all the adrenaline and the rush and the, you know, the glamor around the aside. I think for me, entrepreneurship today is actually the ownership piece, which is which is largely the mentality, which is a mindset. And, you know, if you own your piece of work very, very well, it doesn’t matter how large an outfit you are part or a small part of it. I mean, you you may be a cog in the wheel, but you’re an important cog and your importance is defined by what’s your mindset. True. You lead as a leader, you know, and I see that you’re you know, you’re really entrepreneurial in your, you know, in your attitude and your mindset. We also discuss and able to kind of, you know, talk about that little what is entrepreneurial mindset to you? How do you how do you look at life as a leader and what parts do you believe, you know, the ownership? What is the best way to show that ownership like when you work with your teams or well, what have you learned in life with these people who are high ownership people? And I’m assuming that you were extremely high ownership in all the roles, and that’s exactly why what you’ve been calling luck and tons, I think I think it was just a.

George Kunnappally: So so I’ve always known that I don’t have the ability to do what you do in the sense build a business from scratch and build a team and invest your money and take those risks. So I also had huge respect for entrepreneurs because many of them are not in it for the money. Obviously businesses make money. If they are profitable they are scalable, but many of them could have stopped it or not gone that big. But they’re in it because they’re passionate and that’s the only thing they know in the sense they are creators of solutions, creators of project, creators of wealth, and because of them, people like me who are more risk averse are salaried career professionals. So we have an opportunity. So we are able to support them in scaling up their vision or in achieving their vision. So I’m always thankful for the fact that all my employers, which were mostly business owners themselves, so I’ve mostly worked for smaller businesses and I’m reporting to the owner. So you tend to become family over a period of time and it’s always worked to my advantage that while I am not an investing entrepreneur, I have an owner’s mindset when it comes to running the business and when I am building a team, I am looking for the same quality in my function heads and in my excellent team. And simple example, I’ll give two examples. One is when it comes to decision making. So I have this rule of thumb that whenever I am making a big decision which has a monetary impact or even a qualitative impact, and the data or the reports or the feasibility studies are not crystal clear. And even if they are crystal clear, that’s a lot of money or a lot at stake qualitatively. I basically look at it that if this is my business, what would the decision be? You know, I may choose the more expensive contractor or I may go with a qualitative benefit. But I try to disconnect and think, if this entire business was mine, what would my decision be? Well, that gives a level of clarity which you don’t have otherwise. And once I’ve made that decision, I’m clear. My conscience is clear. Whichever way that decision goes that I took this call. With the owner’s mindset, I didn’t take this call as a salaried resource thinking it’s already 6:00’o clock. I got to rush. 

Ashish Tulsian: Or my incentive is going to be same.

George Kunnappally: Is going to be the same. Or let’s, let’s give this to the cheapest window because that means my incentive will be higher. Yeah, yeah, I have, 

Ashish Tulsian: I look good on the balance sheet. Exactly. 

George Kunnappally: So I’ve, I’ve always looked with that in mind that whenever it’s a difficult call, let’s move everything away and think if this was my money, what would the decision be? And then go all in. I also have a problem with key leadership not having an entrepreneurial mindset, even if they are doing the right things at the right time. Well, simple example. I keep pulling my team’s legs saying that if you are somebody who has 8 to 10 coffees on a weekday, I would assume we would have the same number on your weekly off which is also need not be on the weekend could be on one of the weekdays if that number is any less. That’s not an owner’s mindset. We are all super careful about switching off every light bulb and the water heater as soon as we have left the room at home. It’s not because those pennies are going to pinch us, but it’s been inculcated in us from childhood that when you leave the kitchen, switch off the light, when you leave the bedrooms, switch off the AC but when you leave the conference room, you don’t switch off the lights. When you leave the office toilet, you don’t switch off the light. Actually pains me. I’m like, okay, you would have done that if this was your business, right? 

Ashish Tulsian: Was such a such 

George Kunnappally: a, you know, something small. 

Ashish Tulsian: Yeah, it looks small. But I mean, it’s a very deep insight into, you know, what occurs to you. You know, how life is occurring to you. Correct? Right. And that also, you know, goes back into that work life balance. Right. If you took office, not a part of your life, it actually starts showing from there.

George Kunnappally: And why are we differentiating so much? Because this eight or 10 hours in the office is actually, to be blunt, funding the rest of the body. Yeah. At least for an expat salary. And career professional. This is what is funding your weekends and your holidays and your children’s education and your lifestyle. 

Ashish Tulsian: And what you’ve been calling life. 

George Kunnappally: What you have been calling life. So then shouldn’t you be more respectful and appreciative of that work Component in your life? And doesn’t your employers deserve that much or. I think they do, yeah. Yeah. And that’s always driven all my assignments with all these fabulous, generous people. So even if you take off from Mr. Madani, I left Mr. Madani to join BinHendi. Now, that was not even two years, but two years can be a lifetime because it was a massive learning curve for me, because BinHendi enterprise was huge. And among the many things that we learned in that role with my boss, Mr. Tim Fagan, or with the President himself, must have Mr. BinHendi at a time when there were no major F&B brands in the market. Mr. BinHendi had the audacity in a positive sense, had the guts to roll out one F&B brand after the other, whether it was a Japengo cafe, a Cafe Havana, China Times, which became landmarks that I remember Cafe Havana and Data City Center before the smoking in public places ban came in, always had a cue and the VVIPs in town waiting for a table. The Japengo in Palm Strip used to be always packed 584  China Times and they had a City Center again or Mini Chinese Central were landmarks. So you were way ahead of the curve to launch all these concepts and put your heart and resources into it and make them success stories. While the easier way out would have been to pick up a franchise like Hugo Boss, which he had, or a Porsche design, which he had. But when it came to F&B, he was passionate about food and he was passionate about fishing, and he built an F&B business from scratch. And that was impressive for me. And it’s the first time I was working for a large conglomerate with a regional footprint. And from there I went to ADNOC distribution in Abu Dhabi, which was a consultant role. And everybody in my family thought, This is where I am going to retire because it’s government, it’s set back and. 

Ashish Tulsian: Oh, what, what was it? And what is the role?. 

George Kunnappally: Senior franchise business specialist? There was a mandate to franchise the gas stations regionally, globally, with all the other inserts, the convenience store, the new station and the food court. And there wasn’t anybody with an oil and gas franchise background available. So the nearest they could get was somebody with the F&B franchise background. So after 18 months of official recruitment process, I joined them for a two and a half year stint because there were months when I didn’t have anything to do. Oh. Except. So, ADNOC distribution Before they were listed was a public service utility, which is a budgeted loss making entity because fuel was subsidized. So there’s only so much you can do. And by the time I left, the fuel subsidies were removed. And then there was no real reason to franchise the business because now it’s a very profitable business. And then they went public. And today, ADNOC distribution is a hugely profitable and prestigious flagship asset for the UAE. But I, coming from a private entity background where I always worked for private companies, where there’s a lot of effort and your staffing is always badly adequate. So you have to heavylift across departments and everybody is heavy lifting and everybody is working their backs off to be able to achieve numbers and to be profitable. And then you go into government and I realized that it was too slow for me. I mean, no offense to them, but I was even thinking, oh, I’m going to retire here. My kids are going to get into petroleum and steel. They’re going to join ADNOC in future. And this is one happy retirement life again. But in six months I was so bored and under, you know. 

Ashish Tulsian: I think I think the new work for you know, I think the pace of smaller companies and especially you’re working with the entrepreneurs themselves, right. So I think the decision making or the hustle and. 

George Kunnappally: The hustle that’s that’s that’s addictive. And the fact that you are working with people who have actually put money into their businesses and you get to see them at such close quarters and many of them open up and they share their life stories. So those life stories of my current boss  Mr. Sohail Gidwani  or my previous bosses, whether it’s Mr. Mohammed Al Madani or Mr. BinHendi, Mr. Mahesh Shahdadpuri or Mr. Ismail Takriti, Patrice Douce. That’s made you richer because you’re getting that free. That knowledge, that insight is absolutely free and you get it because you are managing their businesses at such close quarters. Yeah. So the high and, the law, the failures and the successes and the, the all the other stories, it’s priceless. 

Ashish Tulsian: And I think one one thing that you said and and I think I resonate I really, really resonate with it is the that entrepreneurs, you know, are most I mean mostly yeah unless you want to trade off, you’re a creative person. True. So I ask this question do you know a lot of people that in fact, I would love to ask you as well that if like now that you know yourself, now you know, what are your strong suits, your weaknesses, things You like doing things you don’t like doing and things you know are intuitively good at. Like you’re absolutely confident that you’ll you’ll go and you’ll, you know, you’ll be there. You’ll throw a great show if I transferred exactly the same abilities and same weaknesses and same personality. But I’ll ask you to take tangentially our profession, like not F&B, not restaurants, not hospitality, but something you know, in some tangentially out world. What do you think? Using the same skills and exactly the man you are, what would that be?

George Kunnappally: So I. I’ve always believed that I don’t come with any specific skill sets, and I don’t mean that in a superbly humble way. What I mean is the self-awareness is such that we did talk about this earlier also that I don’t come from Ivy League education and I am not trilingual and it’s not you walk into a room and all eyes are on you, kind of six foot personality and husky voice. And so the skill sets that I have probably shared by at least a at least a thousand people in this market. Okay. And I probably know 300 or 400 of them myself. They are, they are my peer group. And the people I look up to and people who are coming up the ranks. And so that’s their luck and right time, right place and you click with the employer. Like in every job I have landed, I always had that meeting with the employer who’s the chairman or the CEO or the founder of the company. And in an hour or two, both of you recognize that there is that connect and now the education and the experience are secondary or they are willing to take a chance on you many a time. Even though there were better qualified candidates. And that’s probably I would define it as luck. They would define it as cultural fit or the entrepreneurial mindset that we are talking about or the owners mindset. So I remember so I always thought if I didn’t get into F&B, what would I really like doing? And that would have been criminal law. I am. 

Ashish Tulsian: By the way, I’m not surprised you on and I know.

 

George Kunnappally: I am I believe it’s something I’m I’m aware of is that I notice way too many things. I mean, not fussed about it, but I notice way too many things. And I’ve always believed that if you can present any side of the argument, depending upon who’s paying you, I could put up a pretty strong argument on any side of the fence and criminal law actually really gives me a kick, whether it’s John Grisham’s novels or whether it’s Frederick Fawcett or I love criminal law. All the. 

Ashish Tulsian: Brilliant, brilliant. That’s that’s awesome. And I’m not surprised because because I see that. That you I mean, your self-awareness is definitely, you know, you know, I think everybody. But that self-awareness is is also because you watch yourself 

George Kunnappally: I will agree. I think many of us are self aware. I think the difference is between accepting your weaknesses because I was reading It’s something we will touch upon. Sheryl Sandberg in her book Lean In, said, You must be willing to accept mistakes if you are opening yourself to feedback. The other way is just run with your managerial authority and don’t take feedback. 

Ashish Tulsian: No, I think the lowest this the smallest possibility of anything improving is the acknowledgment that it needs improvement. 

George Kunnappally: And we are not masters of all. Yeah. 

Ashish Tulsian: We cannot be. 

George Kunnappally: So I come from an operations background. So at least in operations, I know what I am talking about. Recently I was at a radio show with Dubai guys, Richard and Brandy and the were asking me since Nando’s cooking classes are not available on the retail shelf. The fossils that we used to cook. What would you recommend since you must be making a lot of chicken? So I told Richard and Brandy honestly, I can’t cook. The best I can cook is a scrambled egg or a Maggi noodles. So people generally believe that if you are running a restaurant, you must be a really good in the kitchen. I am not. I can’t cook anything. So I think if your are able to accept. So if my L&D team or my kitchen new product development team comes to me with something, I am perfectly comfortable accepting the fact that while I understand the science behind it, I don’t cook. So I will totally go with your feedback. It’s the same thing where I may know a little bit of marketing or a little bit of supply chain or a little bit of IT, but they we totally depend on our function. to run the show because they are subject matter experts. We have awareness of their subject, but not the expertise. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: And that’s true. I think. I think as a leader, this, you know, you know, and I counter one of the points while agreeing with you on that, you know, when you very humbly said or in your self-awareness that, oh, I don’t possess any special skills or I’m not really super skilled at one part. I believe that most of the times as a leader, and especially when you are like when you’re running a business like the full business is not one part of it, one function of it. I think your ability to actually get the ingredients of the recipe together and making make sure that what to put when, who should step out and step in and what time is actually the bigger and the most underrated ability, then knowing the skill yourself most of the day. I mean. 

George Kunnappally: I normally ask my employers during the final round of interviews, what actually keeps you up at night? What are the pain points? So some of them might say I mean, everybody wants to do more sales and more profits, but every employer has always touched on one or two pain points, which is not normally visible in the initial stages of the interview. And my role is basically to take that pain point away from my employer and make it my role or my pain point to resolve. Now, you have passed that onto me. Now it’s my problem and if I am able to fix those problems, then I stay and I am fully conscious of the fact that while we salaried career professionals are paid for the effort, it’s the outcome that ensures their longevity. I can easily say or I’m only paid for the effort, not the outcome. 

Ashish Tulsian: But in fact, in fact, you know, that’s interesting that you exactly. You said that because I think the world is in trouble or jobs are in trouble or whoever feels that my career is in trouble are only the ones who actually get paid for the effort. People who get paid for the outcome are never in trouble. They never they never worry them, never concern. In fact, they never lose business because they are responsible for the outcome. They took the outcomes upon themselves. 

George Kunnappally: So I risk proofed my career. I can say this now pretty early in life, somebody I look up to told me that since you don’t have any major qualifications or qualities, try to stick to revenue generating roads like so. So the message in no uncertain terms was as long as you’re making money for your employer, you will be the last one to be fired. But I would strongly recommend that you don’t think about qualitative function since you are not God’s gift to mankind. So I have taken that to my heart and anybody I have mentored. I’ve told them that from my life experience, the last person to be fired in a recession is the sales manager or the operations manager in our business. 

Ashish Tulsian: No, I think I think I say this to almost every entrepreneur. In fact, you know, last few days this has been the theme. Yeah. The effort versus outcome where. Well I was I like I keep on asking every product guy I mean that applies to Posist as well that if you are a utility, if you are a let’s say a POS calculator, then you will be paid for utility. Correct. But if you are able to drive at least one outcome, yeah. Then you’ll be paid for the value of the proportion of that value. And if somebody you know why you’re selling your product or selling yourself the, you know, as a, as the product, if the buyer is not really valuing you, even though you are pitching the outcome, that simply means that either that outcome is not important for the buyer. Correct. Or the stakes are not high enough for them to care. True. In which case don’t sell to them. Move on. Find somebody who values that outcome and they’re going to give you a percentage of that. You will never have a pricing. So so I say this in like in the context of pricing your product line where is the scope, what service has the scope? But I was like, you know what? I don’t know. I don’t know of any service that doesn’t have scope. The only problem is that you are trying to say that I’m going to give you massage. Yeah. So I’ll pay you 500 bucks. You tell me that I’m going to give you pain relieving massage. I’ll certainly double that. Double that, right. Yeah. And you tell me that I’m going to give you massage only specific to your spinal area, and you’ll be relieved of everything, because. Super specifically. You can charge me $5000. I mean, if I have a problem. But then you need to find people who have who have that problem, right? Yeah. So it’s that right? When you when you look at the outcome, you things change. 

George Kunnappally: And that’s something I’ve always tried to tell our team members that if you’re not adding value, just performing at a task has a certain compensation in the market. But if you want to go beyond that cutoff mark, then you have to specifically add value which your replacement might not be able to provide and a lot of those value adds have a monetary component. I mean, everything is quantifiable today, so everything has a value. High or low, there is a value. 

Ashish Tulsian: And that’s the most of the things that value for an employer, for your leader, for your manager, is the value of time, correct? Yeah. Go getters. Yep. Generalist go getters actually prosper more than the career than lousy specialists. 100%. But if you are somebody who I tasked with anything and whether you are skilled at that or not, but I know that you will get shit done. There is a way higher chance that you know you will prosper more. Even though I know that you are not the specialist and you may not be my first choice like the logical mind, but I would say, know what? This specialist may screw up, right? Because they don’t like they will not be able to understand the variable that pops up in the moment. 

George Kunnappally: So there is always people in your system they may not hold the big titles, but they are closers. Yeah. They take up a task and you know, whatever said and done, they will complete the task. Yes. And you, they may not be sophisticated resources, but if you tell them I need this, this and this done by this day, they won’t come back to you till it’s done. And nine out of ten times they achieve it within that timeframe. Yet they may not be a specialist. They may not have the higher levels in the organizational structure, but they are fixers and closers and they are as important to the business as your senior leadership or restaurant level leadership. 

Ashish Tulsian: Or even the boss, the biggest specialist in the system. Because because for that invention or for that great work to see the light of the day, you need a closer and  a fixer at the front and if they are not there. 

George Kunnappally: And identifying them within your organization, when you are joining a new organization is probably a big test of leadership. And another thing that I have noticed is making a difference. Leading well, transforming is probably one of the bigger tests of leadership than actually achieving sales targets and bottom lines. Because at least in my career, I’ve mostly been hired to either scale up business or to clean up somebody else’s mess or so you’re normally joining either a startup business or you are joining a business which is going through a phase of stag. It’s become stagnant or it’s losing money, and then you’re brought in to basically see whether it can have another run at profitability by implementing some quick tasks. It’s a clean up or a turnaround task. So I’ve rarely been hired by a business which is rocking. And George, you just have to keep it steady. And we are going to be well for it. I’m still looking for that kind of a role. But there. Will be you got you got one you resigned mean so you Your retirement plans really. Seriously I should have just sat there and retired so so I’ve always enjoyed the fact that you are probably somebody’s last option when it’s a profitable business and you’re probably the first option when they want to course correct. Or they are not doing so great. And there’s nothing more to lose. Let’s give this guy a chance. 

Ashish Tulsian: I see the trust me, I see the criminal lawyer in you. But I can’t just. 

George Kunnappally: Many a time. Many a time after joining, getting a role. I sometimes get that HR. File that I see. Who are the other people considered like There are some are really qualified or people I look up to in that list. So why exactly didn’t you hire them? Because they could have done this job. And that’s when this fit comes in where you have to click with your ownership or with your line manager. And I fully understand that because I’ve always looked for that. And that brings me to another point. Equal opportunities for both genders. 

Ashish Tulsian: Mm hmm. So make big, big, big. Not only a big problem, I think, I think the the equal opportunities for both genders is also something that bothers me. You know, all the the feminist agenda on one side. And I think something really basic, which is economies can not be built or prosper without equal contribution of both the genders, because you are alienating 50% or you are basically there’s an attrition in the ability of contributions of 50% of your population by biological reasons. So for me, so it’s obvious. 

George Kunnappally: I’m a committed feminist, but for me, feminism doesn’t end with equal opportunities or equal rights. For me, it comes full circle when you acknowledge that women can be equally competent or more competent than men. And the fact and from experience I can see in many fields they are far more competent than men. It does justify. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: And my wife is my co-founder. Yeah. And I can tell you that how many times I have screwed up with my logical, smart mind. Yeah. And she, with her Intuition is able to get. And was was able to see the bullshit and I was like, whoa, what? Like, how did you see that? And she said, You didn’t listen to me. I said, I didn’t listen to you because you didn’t have data. But you had data And what happened? I’m like, Yeah, I get so.

George Kunnappally: So for me, that’s something I’m extremely conscious of and concerned and I bat for. I have a who is growing up she’s 11 and for us in Nando’s is an equal opportunity employer. But having said that, unless the leadership is consciously making decisions to bring in more female leaders, it’s always when all things are equal, that’s when you have to give the opportunity to the female candidate, not just when they are ahead of the curve. You you will have to do that till gender parity or equal balances that you. Take For example, the Nando’s business today we have because we have consciously tried that we have nine restaurant managed by women out of 19-20. Some of our key functions are led by women. That’s because as an ownership or a leadership, we are consciously looking at balancing that. Otherwise, we were predominantly a male. So you do you make an effort. To make an effort. So our busiest restaurants are today managed by women and but is.

Ashish Tulsian: Is that something I have not seen that in in Dubai in general. I mean, it’s not uncommon. See.

George Kunnappally: The world is dominated by men and the kitchens are dominated by men. But we still have a lot of highly qualified and accomplished female chefs today coming up and taking their space. And it’s rightfully so. But historically, the F&B sector was dominated by men. But that’s changing now. And unless we consciously make an effort, I’m not a believer in mission statements and placards. You’ve got to do it. And then. 

Ashish Tulsian: But George is it difficult? You know, you know, not know that you guys are making a conscious effort? I mean, you’ve been making them consciously. Is it difficult to also find women? You know, while balancing this who are I’m not saying more competent. I think I would rather say who have the intent. And I’m talking about the numbers like, you know, who have the intent and also, you know, their conditioning or their or their social structure where they’re coming from is allowing them to be competent. 

George Kunnappally: I think from Nando’s, as such is a very liberal organization across the world. And as a parent company, I follow franchise partners. So our vibe is very different. We are much more open and friendly and whether it’s the restaurant or the team, you will see that in the work culture. But historically, if you see men, men are hired for their potential, women are hired for their past accomplishments. It’s not my words. It’s again, Sheryl Sandberg. But you tend to agree with that, because even when recruiters reach out to candidates. Can you see your operations head or your head of people, certain roles in the organization we gravitate towards? Oh, we need a lady. Yeah. Why not a man? Yeah, why not? HR, for example. Predominantly women. Why can’t IT be a lady or work on supply chain be a lady like on marketing, marketing or PR roles are predominantly women. Why can’t it be women like on operations be a lady? I have worked in organizations where women have been. 

Ashish Tulsian: Why do you think? Why do you think that happens? 

George Kunnappally: The feeling that, oh, it takes long hours or no, they may have other commitments.  But I see my wife as an entrepreneur. She’s a homemaker. She gave up a career in marketing to be with the kids and run the home. But if I were to look at my home as a startup, when we started building the family, so she used to be a supply chain manager. She’s a repairs and maintenance manager, she’s the manager. She manages the home finance Now, what do I manage? Pretty, very little and I’m managing somebody else’s business. So I honestly don’t have skin in the game. The investor has skin in the game. So I used to tell my team your risk is two months salary.  His risk is probably his entire life. So in that respect, my wife’s risk is far greater if she fails in her assignment, which is the whole entrepreneurship with the kids and with the in-laws and her family and friends and the whole nine yards. The risks are far higher than mine. I can get up and say it’s not working. Apply for a few more jobs. Swing one move on.  like yourself. Yeah. Yeah. I see my wife as a homemaker is actually a it’s entrepreneurship of a different yeah. And you can’t quit. And you can’t quit and it’s 24*7 and you don’t know what everyday throws at you and it’s predominantly a thankless job. 

Ashish Tulsian: But I mean, I’m sorry, but look how while understanding all of this and appreciating that, my question again is, isn’t it also hard because of the social structure, patriarchy, whatever happened and yet it’s happening? But do you also do you find that hard to also hire? For example, I’ve been looking for, you know, viewers of this. If you have somebody, please, I’ve been looking for a leader in HR. At Posist, a global, it’s a global role. Okay. And I’ve been looking for a male and no, no bias, but all our team has been females all the way. Right? So I also said, hey, you know, can we also look for male? So I rectify we’re not looking for a male. Can we also consider this time? I said, “Hey, can we also look for males in candidature, please? Right. And it’s been it’s been extremely hard, right. But at the same time, you know, to my surprise, I got so many male candidates for CHRO position and now I’m not able to find CHRO female. So then I saw that. Okay, well, while it was predominantly were all female. Yeah. The VP HR. And the CHRO was A male. And i still haven’t been able to get my head around that, but this is what my experience. Is. This is why  our ad stuff is gender neutral. 

George Kunnappally: But my take is all things being equal, we should prioritize the female candidate till we have a 50-50 ratio in the workplace. All things equal is Otherwise, you’re basically always going to have a skewed ratio and you’re always trying to play catchup. So in that context, we’re lucky. We found a lot of candidates, even within the system of women who were interested in taking up more responsibility and were willing to scale up and were willing to relocate to other cities if they had to, and their spouses were supportive if they were in a relationship. Now, that’s another thing that I am. I keep telling my team members or people I speak to that in our industry or in any industry, if you’re a career professional and the biggest decision is not who you work for, but who you decide to spend your life with. 

Ashish Tulsian: You mentioned Sheryl Sandberg’s book. Yeah, but I would want to know from you that as a leader, to grow yourself continuously, you know, you need to you need to keep honing, if not skills per say, but at least thinking you need to give me some sort of a Mine is – podcast works for me that’s the dope is having conversations like these same for me I you know for me people are you know yeah so I group I do books, podcast interviews and people. Okay. You know what books, you know, have you been reading or can you talk about books that either changed your life or stay with you for some pieces that. 

George Kunnappally: So I read? But nowadays you get most of your information from magazines and snippets, syndicated columns. So I read a lot of that, but books that have stayed with me for a long time that has left a lasting impression. I don’t know if you’ve read the book, The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy 

Ashish Tulsian: No, I haven’t read the book.  

George Kunnappally: So obviously Arundhati Roy is a Malayali writer. It’s her first book. The story unfolds in a tiny town in Kottayam, where my father is from. So it’s about fraternal twins. So it again resonates, but it’s about the political realities. In 1960s India and the book basically talks about the historical roots of these political realities and how human greed and desperation can emerge from a very rigid, caste based society. But the take home of the book is that small incidents and events can have a lasting impression on your personality or psyche or your worldview when you grow up or what happens in your childhood. And you may think it’s. Influenced. By, by seven or eight years of age. Yeah, and it’s a string of incidents. So what I took from that was I read this long before I became a parent. Yeah. So I wanted to curate a set of experiences for my children or for my family that would mold their future worldview and to avoid any of those small untoward incidents which can which may look immaterial today but could still leave a lasting impression on a five year old or a six year old or a seven year old. So I am extremely conscious about the environment my kids are growing up. My wife Nita was born and raised in Dubai.  So She’s a Dubai kid, but we’re both very conscious about shielding our kids and giving them the right life experiences as they grow up. So they become well-rounded individuals and their worldview is not skewed because of that one particular instance, which is probably how many of us grew up because we didn’t have that kind of shielding. So our worldview about many subjects is based on what we experience when we were five years old or ten years old, and nothing much has changed because it’s entrenched deep inside your psyche. 

Ashish Tulsian: You know, a lot nowadays. I actually think about this one thing that one is that, you know, the shielding mechanism or, you know, if if parents are not thinking through exactly that way. But I think another another thing is that, you know, when we grew up, as, you know, our our childhood, the global exposure also was limited. I mean, it was limited. It wasn’t almost there. So and and the travel experience was also, you know, very, very shielded in the sense that you, you know, only travel to certain places, either your relatives or, you know, for your religious purpose, or even if you go to holidays, it’ll be a set structure. Structure, right? Yeah. I actually wasn’t that. I find that nowadays the kids who are, you know, the Gen Z, people who were born like after 2005 who are today already 17 and that hurts. But they have this access which is super global. Yeah. You know, these are the kids who are not being I mean, they’re not growing up in a country or a city. They’re growing up on the world stage. That they are literally growing on the Internet and then know and they see so much. True, I don’t know what will that result into, but in here. But I believe I believe that a large part of that impact on personality can also come from the fact that one situation or one experience may not actually, you know, push you back or, you know, stay with you enough because you now have this exposure where you can actually compare notes and you can say that oh okay this happened today or with me by chance. But this is not the world order, correct? Because most of the incidents that shaped us were also like, oh, is this this is the world order. And then we yeah, then we figured. The internet took over. And before Netflix took over. 

George Kunnappally: I would agree with that. But it is also a parent’s fear that while they have access to all this technology, what we discuss and the situations we expose our children to need to be constructive and they should not be left to interpretation. Correct. So I’ve never seen my son or daughter open Khaleej Times or the newspapers and magazines at all. But when we speak, they tend to know a lot of things, which means they are grasping their information from other sources. And while and it’s sometimes surprising to me that what happened yesterday or today morning, which is of a pure news value, they are aware of it by late evening, even though they haven’t opened up a spreadsheet. So I agree with you that they have. They are growing up on the world stage and the Internet has made things easier. But what I’m trying to do is to shield them from or to curate a set of experiences which would form a foundation for them if they start picking up bits and pieces from the Internet and try to string them together to create a narrative, I’m like, Well, this is the base you can now probably draw your own graph, but this is the base and it’s probably coming from a parental fear that what can go wrong, because if you even look at awareness, it’s probably funny. But our generation probably knew the facts of life when we were 15. I remember Joshua and Isabel playing my kids, playing in the living room and there’s series going on, and suddenly there is a kiss. They were probably four years or five years when they would stop playing and look up. They didn’t know what was happening, but they knew that was something different. All the if you didn’t have that awareness, that awareness didn’t come from the parent. That awareness came from what you refer to as the Internet generation. Yeah, yeah. So we used to be quite surprised and amused that our four year olds or five year olds knew that the shooting and the fighting and the normal Scenes are normal. Yeah. But the kiss is different and they are barely five. 

Ashish Tulsian: Yeah, I think the sensory, the sensory and the sensory overload they are born in and the amount of screens they are surrounded with. Yes, it’s, it’s phenomenal. That’s what I’m saying. I actually at times were know that if I had a view into like today’s teenagers mindset like apart from just observing them from outside I really want to know what’s going on their funny head because I’m sure world is not looking like I mean I and them have like a very, very different view of how the world is today. Yeah. And where is it going? So George. You know, a lot has been said about the aggregate as being the boon or the bane. And, you know, COVID times accelerated deliveries, accelerated aggregate businesses. Yeah, it was going I mean, restaurant owners on one side were grateful for the fact that they exist and the logistics businesses delivery to exist. And on the other side, these guys have bitten into the bottom line like negative impact. And the bottom line is not even like a serious one. I feel today we are talking about this August of 2022. Looks like the world has settled your past COVID. What’s your take on aggregators today? You know, in August of ‘22 what do you feel about this? 

George Kunnappally: My take on aggregators have always been consistent. They are an essential of the ecosystem we have. We can’t blame the aggregator because the customer wants to use the aggregate. Yeah, very strong brands are today on the aggregators because they are not able to generate that traffic on their own platforms. We thought multiple times to develop our own mobile app only to realize that it while it is a good thing to have the bulk of the orders, thanks to the UAE, lifestyle is going to be on the Talabat, and the Deliveroo and the Zomato. 

Ashish Tulsian: And the only way, by the way, across the world. I have not seen any country where any brand succeeded now in getting major orders. 

George Kunnappally: And when operators complain about the aggregator commissions, I have one question to ask. Do you know what does it cost to deliver through your own channel using your own driver? Most operators don’t have a clear number we have, so we are on aggregators because one, it is almost the same cost or slightly cheaper be on an aggregator. It takes away the headache from us because they are the experts. They take care of the logistics, they generate the order. The UAE population loves to be on aggregators, so it works for everybody. But again, even though aggregators are private-equity backed and probably not all of them are profit driven, they are transaction driven. Big data has a different valuation game and all that. 

Ashish Tulsian: None of them are profitable and I don’t think they will be in the near future. 

George Kunnappally: In the near future and they are comfortable with that. Okay. So if your transaction value is very low and your transaction count is also very low, you will have to pay top dollar to the aggregate. Now, is it cheaper for you to deliver yourselves? Then why don’t you deliver yourselves? If it is not the need to work on your average transaction value or on the number of orders because the number one metric is every transaction value. So if you look at Nando’s, we don’t do the kind of numbers that many QSR brands do in terms of transaction count, but our ATV is significantly high, which means any aggregator makes money on delivering a Nando’s order. So we get attractive rates now on a 100 dirham order of Nando’s. If you are charging 20%. That’s $20. Now, if your TV is only 30 dirhams, even at 40%, what are you making? Yeah, he is still losing money. Yeah. So that is the argument. Why aggregators are charging different rates to different operators. Either the order volume should make sense or the ATV should make sense. You cannot have both low and expect the aggregator to do you a favor. Okay, so that’s one. The only area where I am not comfortable with the aggregators is around the world. The agreements with aggregators allow you to price the menu lower on your website or your mobile app only in the UAE and probably in the region. the aggregator agreements prevent us from doing that. Personally, I believe the government is already getting involved because aggregators are very much a part of the essential services, if you can say, and whether it’s a driver rights or whether it is welfare or whether it’s how they are conducting their business, the regulators are still actively involved and whether it’s from the handling of food or whether it’s from the managing of the drivers or the business relationship as such. And these are big players and they are critical to the ecosystem. But I would, I had a good laugh because I was talking to one of the aggregators and I said, you know, in the middle of COVID, or as we are all coming out of COVID, if you guys pick up a perceived-to-be super expensive brand ambassador, the feeling that normal operators have is they have so much money to pay this sportsmen why can’t they reduce my commission? Or if you are taking up so much of outdoor advertising space in the middle of COVID or as we come out of COVID and we are all crying for reduced fees while you are going on an advertising spend spree, the general feeling is we are not in this together. So you probably need to look at that from a PR perspective and say the timing or the or the it was tone deaf or to an extent, but I am personally a supporter of the aggregator. I’m not so much a supporter of aggregators running their own kitchens. Yeah, but that’s. 

Ashish Tulsian: A conflict of interest, a major conflict. 

George Kunnappally: I personally think that is a significant conflict of interest. Yeah, because you have access to our data, you have access to our. 

Ashish Tulsian: And also your digital marketplace. Well, I mean, more than building the data, I think the one of the biggest conflict, which I feel you know, although they are for us, they are the partners. Right. And this is, this is just my opinion. Yes. It’s my opinion. Is that they’re not only having your data, the bigger and the most significant aspect is that they have the ability to show the listings. They’re the digital marketplace. Yeah right. So their algo decides an average customer is going to see what exact right so when you own my data you can do something but it’ll take an effort. But when you own discovery and you also in the kitchen. True and you also have the data that’s a little that’s like too much power. 

George Kunnappally: So I believe that aggregators running their own kitchens is a conflict of interest. Yeah. And it’s, it’s scary because we don’t even have access to our data on these aggregators, but they do. The buying patterns, the customer information, the fast moving items, which time of the day. I mean, they have full visibility and when brands tell us that 60% of their business is on aggregators. That’s very scary. Like Nando’s is still very much a dine-in business for us. Yeah, delivery is still a small percentage of our business. It’s a good percentage of the business, but still not a significant part of our business. But for brands where delivery is a significant part of their business and it is on aggregators, that’s scary. 

Ashish Tulsian: No, that’s fair. George. Would you like to give some signing off words to people who are watching this and people who are watching, you know, this are, you know, people from the industry, aspiring restaurateurs, you know, operations people, legends in making your, you know, your peers. What is one message as a leader in the restaurant space and the way, you know, you know, the world is growing and the world of the food is actually becoming better and better. There’s a net growth in the food, you know, commerce in the world in general. Any any words, you know, you know, to them? 

George Kunnappally: So I’d like to bring us back to the Nando’s family, where I look at the Nando’s family, and then I look at our entire industry and see we are a family. We are in this because we are passionate about this business and we are passionate about our families and our stakeholders and our customers. And we are also keen on learning from each other and impacting the communities where we operate. Okay. And while we may not be perfect in everything that we do, if we join hands, we can fill in the landscape of our collective dreams. And it’s that process which I’m happy to be a part of. And what I would like to encourage all my co-operators in this market, at least in the UAE market, is we have a UAE restaurant group which has taken shape and which is led by a group of professionals who are until today running it pro-bono. We need more members. The strength of any restaurant association is in the numbers. Yeah. So we can only be representative if we have a part of the industry participating actively. And that’s yet to happen. And I would strongly urge fellow operators, big and small, to pitch in with ideas, with support, with memberships, with collaborations so that we are truly representative and then we will be able make an impact for the ecosystem, for the industry, and we are already sanctioned by the government. So what are you waiting for? 

Ashish Tulsian: Yeah, that’s a, that’s a big one. 

George Kunnappally: What you waiting for? Yeah. And when I see restaurant associations around the world making huge progress. Well we are at the cusp of that and this is the way to go. Let’s learn from each other. Let’s work together. And anyone who’s looking at entering the industry, there’s no better time to start. The future is bright. There’s so much happening in our industry. It’s tech driven more and more. It’s still the human element, which is very active.Yeah. And please come and help us make this better. 

Ashish Tulsian: Awesome, George. That was. That was a great conversation. Thanks for. Thanks for being here. And I’m sure people who are watching this will not only know, you know, the criminal lawyer side of George apart from, the operator, but I’m sure there’s a lot to gain from this conversation. I thoroughly enjoyed it. 

George Kunnappally: Same here. 

Ashish Tulsian: And I’m definitely leaving a little more enriched than before. Same. Thank you so much for your time. 

George Kunnappally: Thank you for having me.