Ashish:  Hey, y’all welcome to Restrocast today. I’m with Duncan Muir. He’s a senior director F&B for a beloved Middle Eastern brand called Bateel. Bateel is known for its dates, its retail business and Bateel Cafe. And Duncan is the one who is spearheading the entire F&B at Bateel. My conversation with Duncan was interesting for, you know, a couple of reasons, but the one that stands out for me is how Duncan fell into the restaurant industry. And I think over the course of his career, he was built to be customer centric, he was built to serve the loyal customer, to serve customers who keep coming back or who build a relationship with the brand.

He spent most of his life at sports facilities and golf clubs managing their F&B and today at Bateel, though I couldn’t relate why  will  somebody from a F&B golf side will come to retail and still thrive. But at the end of the conversation, it was quite clear to me that is also the advice that Duncan gives: be customer centric.

So this episode is all going to be about customer centricity as well as taking care of your people. I enjoyed my conversation. I’m sure you will. So, Duncan, welcome to Restrocast. Thanks for agreeing to do this and great to meet you in person finally.

Duncan: Thank you. I’m looking forward to it. It’s a pleasure to meet you as well.

Ashish: So I know that you’re doing great stuff at Bateel and congratulations on your 20th store for Bateel in Dubai you know, but we’ll come to the good stuff that you’re doing at Bateel. I want to know where it all started. Where were you born and raised and why did you come into the hospitality industry? What built you know, to come this far?

Duncan: Yeah, it was, it was by chance really, I got into the industry. So I was born an expat. Ironically, I’m now living an expat life.  My father worked for what was Cooper’s in those days but it’s PWC in Jamaica, and I was born there. But I was brought up in the UK and schooled there and when I was in my late teens I wanted to save some money for a car. So I went and worked at the local hotel and worked in the restaurant. And I was going to go to university and…

Ashish: Isn’t that how it starts for everyone?

Duncan: I know. I know. So I had this big plan to go and be a lawyer and study law at university and then I got into this working in this restaurant. This is quite good fun. This is much more exciting. And I went to work there for a couple of years. I loved them.

Ashish: Couple of years?

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: Oh wow!

Duncan: While I was doing my final of high school years, I thought, this is, this is really fun. I like this. It’s social. It’s good fun. I love food, surrounded by it and get to meet people and work with some great people.  I thought, this is really good.

So I looked into it and I thought, you could make a career of this. I thought. So I kind of changed my aspirations a little bit and thought I was going to university and study

hotel hospitality management. So I went to Strathclyde, which is one of the best hotel schools in the UK, and had a great time there. Managed to do my final year in Singapore. And then the natural progression from that was hotels. So I went and joined Hilton on their sort of their graduate program and did a couple of years with that and really learned everything about hotels. But it was that the restaurant and the F&B part that was the only bit that really excited me.

The hotels are really fascinating places, but the restaurants is where it’s, where the action is and where obviously the passion for food is. And so I, I, really enjoyed working in restaurants. So I thought, this is really good, but I really want to work in an environment that’s probably more focused in restaurants because hotels in Europe are not particularly strong on F&B.

Ashish: Yeah.

Duncan: Well, or they weren’t in those days. So then there was an opportunity in Dubai to come here and yeah, that was in the year 2000. So I’ve been here 22 years. I’ve worked across the sort of restaurant and food retail environment here with a lot of scope across the region and really, really thrived in it. It’s been brilliant and it’s such an exciting industry.

Ashish: In 2000, you’re saying that food scene was thriving in Dubai?

Duncan: Dubai was. It just started to take off. It was all, it was, originally was very hotel based. So the hotel would have a couple of restaurants there and…

Ashish: Actually you know what I came to Dubai for the first time like visiting in 2013 and you know from 2013 to today it’s been what nine years already. Wow! But in the last nine years, I actually feel that I’ve seen like Dubai getting built like I can actually spot so many buildings  which weren’t there or I saw them, you know, half construction. If I in my mind when I compare that image, I still feel that, oh wow, in 2013, though, I love Dubai, you know, as compared to today it was so less developed. What was Dubai of 2000?

Duncan: It was, it was, it started to evolve and it, and evolved pretty quickly  a big stepping stone was the opening of Madinat. So when Madinat opened which must have been, what, 2000-2003, it had independent restaurants licensed in a complex that weren’t hotel operated. They were, they were a place you could go to. You could go to the bars, you could go to restaurants,  a real sort of magnet to draw the local expatriate and residential population. And it really changed the scene because before you’d have to go to this hotel for one meal or this place to go but suddenly you had these these, this place to go and it really was far more creative probably than Dubai had before. And from that it just exploded and suddenly Dubai became definitely regionally,the epicenter for the restaurant industry. 

Ashish:  I think Burj Al Arab was 2007-2008?

Duncan: No, no, that was about 2000. Just opened just before the Millennium, I think 2000 yeah.

Ashish:  2?

Duncan: 2000. 

Ashish: Oh, okay yeah. Madinat and ..

Duncan: Madinat was later. It was two or three years later.

Ashish:  Oh, okay.

Duncan: And we had a Wafi City. It was recently opened and again there were eight or nine restaurants there. So the F&B scene kind of really progressed from these isolated hotel restaurants to be kind of independently run where you had real focus and Emirates had just started to explode in terms of route network. Tourism industry started from a fairly low base. So yeah Dubai was, it was a really exciting place to come to and it was really progressive. Lots of new, new stuff coming. I mean, a lot of it was locally created as well, which is really good .

Ashish: I mean, I am this is , this is more of a personal you know, I don’t it’s somewhere in the middle of personal and professional. What made you not work in the UK where you where you were instead of that you, you know, happened to be in Singapore or come to Dubai. What goes like,you know, what’s what’s happening there why, why do you choose an expat life?

Duncan: I think because I was born into it and I think it’s in your DNA. And I think you can see that there’s a bigger world out there than your home country. So I was I know from an early age, I remember me 13, 14. I always had aspirations to travel, to live abroad, to try new things. So, yeah, and I think because my father was an expats as well, kind of it triggered that as well. It was interesting when I remember I flew with six new starts in 2000 to Dubai when I when I first started working in Dubai, we all joined at the same time, we’re the same flight and it turned out all six of us had been born expats and it was just a complete coincidence. 

Ashish: Wow.

Duncan: But I think when you’re kind of in that environment and the excitement of it and the sense of adventure, I think it triggers something inside of you that you want to do it later on. I have and I ironically think about after six or seven years of living here, I mean, my wife decided to go back to England and maybe look at relocating there permanently. And we were I think we lasted a year and we and the excitement and the lifestyle and and the pace of things and this environment, we really missed it. So the first opportunity we came back. So we’re kind of resettled here now. This is, this is home for us and this is a great place to be based.

Ashish: You know how I you know, I’m just hearing this and this is like very interesting because I was talking to somebody yesterday, you know, George.

Duncan: Oh!

Ashish: And George is from India and George said the same thing, you know, for India. Well he said, well, I came here, spent a few years, then I went back, not for good, but I like kind of visited back and I just couldn’t survive. And I, you know, I had to come back and I was like, okay, now that you’re saying this for the England, I think it’s really about, you know, how life starts occurring to you.

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: You know, then you know what the home country is about.

Duncan: I think it’s down to individuals as well. So some people have that sense of adventure. They want in maybe a fast paced environment, diversity of the people. Other people, it doesn’t work for them. So they’re happy to stay in an environment that they’re very familiar with that is very structured and organized and a lot of history. And so so yeah I think different horses for different courses and..

Ashish:  Yeah

Duncan: And ironically, I’m a twin, I have a twin sister and we are chalk and cheese she’s she’s never understood why I would ever want to leave the UK. For her, it is completely alien.

Ashish: You guys are in some sort of a program or what? George said he has a twin brother.

Duncan: Yes, he does of course.

Ashish:  Yeah. Oh, man, this is…wow

Duncan: Maybe twins are running away from their one another. I don’t know. 

Ashish: Yeah. That’s fair.

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: That sounds like a good plan.  Oh, so your your your sister’s back in England?

Duncan: Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep. She works as a teacher. Yeah, but, yeah, completely chalk and cheese to complete difference. She couldn’t understand why I would be living abroad, but yeah.

Ashish: Uh so, so which restaurant did you like? Which, which F&B? You said you came here for the F&B.

Duncan: Yeah. So I joined the Creek Golf and Yacht Club and they had a small restaurant complex with a boardwalk and aquarium and QD’S. So I was in charge of then QD’S.

Ashish: QD’s?

Duncan: Yeah. QD’S on the creek. Yeah. Near a city center. So that facility just opened maybe in 2019. So when I joined in 2020, I managed that the fine dining restaurant, which was a seafood restaurant, called aquarium, which was..

Ashish:  2020?

Duncan: 2020. Yeah. 

Ashish: Okay.

Duncan: And then again we were very popular destination because we weren’t particularly seen as a hotel environment. It was a bit different. Beautiful setting on the creek with a massive decking for the boardwalk…

Ashish: This was back in 2000? 

Duncan: Yeah, in 2000, Yeah. So it was a really and in those times that part of the bay was the center of it, moved along the coast towards Jumeirah and up towards the Marina now. But in those times you either lived in Dubai or you lived in Durham, you either live on one side or the other. There was nothing past the Trade Center. So between us and Wafi, we were the main place for people to go out for dinners. And we were both, both venues were licensed. So it was yeah, it was a great place to be and it was exciting and really busy. And as I say, Dubai grew and changed. I think it’s obviously a little bit different in that part of town now, but it’s still I still, we still go back the family & I there and it’s a great setting at night for sunsets and over the creek.

Ashish: And so what are you taking care of, you know at the restaurant like what did you join as?

Duncan: I joined as General Manager for the restaurant. Yeah. So I was previously working in London as a restaurant manager for the Hilton. So yeah, I guess, I then within that company, we also had Emirates Golf Club and what was the old natal sheba golf club. So I over a 3 to 4 year period, I worked across, I mean, different roles within the company, looking at the restaurants and finishing as a f&b manager for what was Nad Al Sheba golf club, which is now obviously maidan  where we have the horse racing and the golf club as well. So yeah, a lot of my experience has been in sporting facilities in the Middle East, but always in F&B whether it’s food restaurants or food retail.

Ashish: The West Port City also has a golf club, right?

Duncan: It does. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. So, yeah, but, you know, especially in those days where there weren’t a lot of restaurants that were licensed outside of hotels and the golf and sports clubs had licenses. So it became a kind of an epicenter for the especially the Western expats and the Asian expats to go and dine out and enjoy a very great dining experience. 

Ashish: So. So so, you spent how many years with them after 2000?

Duncan: Four years with them. 

Ashish: Alright. And then? 

Duncan: And then I, I went to Doha for a couple of years, back into hotels, which was a really good experience. Doha was extremely small then. We only had four or five main hotels, but it was really a good experience and a really, a really friendly place to live. But obviously it probably wasn’t as fast paced or as dynamic as Dubai. So..

Ashish: I think that’s changing now, right?

Duncan: Yeah, I think so, yeah. Obviously I think in a few months time when the World Cup is over, I think the whole world will be looking at Doha. And I think it’s great for the Middle East to have a a World Cup here. And I’m sure they are doing an amazing job. I’ll obviously look forward to going over there and watching a few games myself. So, yeah, so Doha was really an experience, but after a bit of time off, I was quite keen to come back to Dubai and continue my career growth, but also enjoy the life that Dubai provides to everyone. So yeah, I came back and I joined working at Nad Al Sheba, a golf club in an Emirates Golf Club again. So a company that I was familiar with and really enjoyed and there was a lot of expansion going on in those time.

Ashish: So what’s how, how’s working at like a restaurant or F&B at a sports facility different from, let’s say like a high street fine dine? How different is that experience for you as a manager or, you know, somebody who’s running the restaurant? What the,  are there any different dynamics?

Duncan: The day to day business is exactly the same. You have to serve great food, amazing service, and create a nice environment that people want to come into. And the principles are the same, I think especially in Dubai in those days, it provide the golf clubs provided a really nice platform for people to go to a venue to dine in. First of all, they have the availability of licenses. So, golf courses provide an amazing backdrop. So, it’s scenic, is beautiful, is lush, it’s green living in the desert. That’s a real dynamic. And I think you have an element of a social scene there already because people go play golf, they use the sports facilities, they use the pools. So you have an element of a captive market to really work with and then you bring it. 

Ashish: That’s the dynamic. That’s the dynamic that I’m pointing out. Like, you know, in a high street restaurant, the loyal customers are still walk-ins. 

Duncan: Yeah, yeah, right.

Ashish: But then at a golf club, you will have most of the members and you know…

Duncan: Very similar to hotels, but you have a sitting population there that you’re very accessible to. Whereas if you’re a completely standalone restaurant, you have to create all your own traffic.

Ashish: Yeah.

Duncan: It’s not given to you on a plate. And actually ironically after that, my career progressed into restaurants where I worked in standalone restaurants originally for eight years with Landmark Group and we have operated eight, nine different restaurant brands across the Middle East from fine dining to QSR, but they all were standalone facilities. So you, I enjoy that environment because you have to create everything you’re not given footfall on the plate you’re not.

Ashish: Yeah, yeah. I know.

Duncan: But also your focus, your, your sole focus is on your restaurants. Whereas if you’re part of a hotel golf facility, you’re also looking at the golf facility.

Ashish: Did that change for you? Because I you know, my observation is that I see, you know, most of the people from the hotel background are who are running F&B inside hotels are, let’s say, golf clubs or sports facilities. Customers are captive. You’re a large part of your job is not to bring in the guest. Your job is your job starts after the guest comes. And that’s a given, right. And you go to a restaurant company whose like a standalone or a high speed restaurant. Now it’s a big thing that gets added to your, you know, to your job, which is to get the customers. Was it like a ..?

Duncan: I think I don’t think hotels have a captive market because people can walk out the hotel easily across the street and go to a restaurant. But but it’s not as obviously is. 

Ashish: I mean, your discovery is captive.

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: I mean, at least I’m coming to the hotels. 

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: I mean, this hotel’s restaurant, I will give the first chance.

Duncan: Yeah, of. Course. Yeah. Yeah.

Ashish: I may not even walk into this coffee shop like if I was outside.

Duncan: Yeah, Yeah. But I think that’s maybe half the attraction of, of, of working in independent restaurants is that you, you have a very blank canvas to work with. You have to be very creative, you have to be extremely guest focused and you have to be resilient and resourceful to get the customers in, to react to situations. And we have our restaurant managers every day that that job is far more complicated than it would be in a hotel. They don’t have a housekeeping department to call on. If they have to go and clean a toilet, they have to get it clean themselves. If it’s a light bulb goes, they don’t call the duty maintenance guy to come in. They have to fix it or get someone in need to do it. So they’re much more hands on, they’re much more multitasking. And and I think for them, it gives them a much more general management program as well, rather than just running day to day operations. And I think the way independent restaurants look at their financial reporting is far more detailed. You you obviously have the rent component. You have a lot more accountability.

Ashish: Yeah. You’re, you know, borderline centric.

Duncan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So again, I think if someone is commercially driven or has a business acumen, I think independent restaurants is a fantastic environment for them to, to explore that before maybe they go into different industries or because it’s, it’s a very, a great base if so, I always say if you go into restaurant management, you can go into so many different other industries from that because you you learn so many different components, especially if you work at independent restaurants. 

Ashish: But but is it is it is it also different from the you know, I’m sure you have stories about the golf club any of the members you know dealing with the tantrums are.

Duncan: Oh you have that yeah yeah. And I think hotels are the same as well. You have regular guests. They have a sense of like almost a sense of entitlement or ownership, especially…  

Ashish: I mean, the sports clubs and the golf clubs have like 10x of the hotel on it. Yeah. Because of the hotel I still am like, you know, I’m here for three days and seven days, right? I can all I can throw my weight on for seven at a golf club I’m there like 40 times a year. 

Duncan: Yeah. And if I paying a substantial membership fee they, they, they feel they have some skin in the game and they have the ability.

Ashish: So was it liberating to come out of that?

Duncan:  Yeah. I think it’s you have pluses and minuses. I think it’s great to have such familiarity with your customer base. You know them inside out, you know who they are. They frequent you so much, it’s great. I think it builds a really nice environment and rapport. But but obviously it does come with its challenges as well.  When when they have their expectations are far sometimes high and then standard and maybe sometimes unrealistic. But look, I think in every environment you have to… 

Ashish: You remember any any quirks or any anything that you had to deal with any any anecdote. Or…

Duncan: Oh, I think some of the constant ones were people not liking each other because you are often this this person can’t sit next to this person and they have to move the tables apart and reservations. I don’t want to sit here, I want to sit there. And it was, it was crazy. Often you had people having their own seat in the bar, in the sports bar. 

Ashish: That’s my spot.

Duncan: But yeah, if someone is sitting in there, why did you let someone sit in my spot like that? I own that seat sort of thing. Yeah. Crazy drinks being created. People got their own drink and then they wanted they were meant to put on the menu because it was and name it under them, their own name..

Ashish: Oh wow.

Duncan: ..because they created it. 

Ashish: Like you’d get legit requests saying that name this after me?

Duncan: Yeah, I but look, it’s also good environment to me and it’s good fun and you have that level of familiarity with your customer base is really, really good. But yeah, it’s a different environment. But yeah.

Ashish: I’m still stuck at these two people can’t be sitting near each other.

Duncan: Yeah, yeah. But the people, especially over here, we, the expat life is for a lot of people work, golf, back to work, golf so they spend so much time in these facilities that they, they get to know everyone and some of the likes and they don’t like. So it’s yeah it’s fascinating places. But yeah so yeah, through my career here I’ve kind of evolved into being more specialist in a, in the, in the standalone restaurants where the only main focus is, is, is the food, the drink and…

Ashish: Yeah. And that’s exactly what, what you’re doing now. 

Duncan: Yeah. And obviously now with Bateel there’s an element of food retail with the, with our big retail boutiques as well.

Ashish: And so, so why Bateel? You know, given that as a brand and I’m you know, excuse the brevity here, I think I think as, as a brand positioning, right, the first thing that comes to my mind when I look at Bateel is retail and then Bateel cafe or I mean yes. That’s my consumer perspective, right so..

Duncan: Obviously the retail business is far more established. It’s been around for 30 plus years, whereas the restaurants are only 15 years old. Also globally, there is a big global footprint for the retail business the boutique setup I think we have presence in dozens and dozens of countries whereas the restaurants were only really present in four countries so um what really attracted to me to Bateel was previously especially When I was with landmark it was brilliant. We had lots of franchised brands, but when you’re running a franchise brand, your custodian of the brand, your you’re there to execute obviously you have to show full respect to the franchisee, sorry, the franchisor. I make sure that you execute what they would like you to execute in a manner that is to their DNA as well as obviously understanding the local requirements.

What really attracted me to Café Bateel and the excitement we have is we own the brand, we own develop, and operate our own brand, so we have far greater accountability. We have a fantastic NPD team that develop all of our dishes, our drinks. We do our own designs. We, we, we control so many more elements of our overall product that I think if you’re a true restaurateur, there’s a lot of us who would love to be in that environment rather than the franchise where you have a great brand, but you kind of given here’s your manual. Here’s our. recipes, yeah, please execute it. And obviously you’re the custodian of that brand for that region and obviously an integral part of them and working in somewhere like Café Bateel where I obviously joined for a period of eight years ago, we do everything in-house because we are who we are and we’re not running on someone else’s back.

Ashish: So there’s a lot more ownership, you know, mindset across the company. 

Duncan: Yeah and it’s a fascinating environment in many regards. We have to be more dynamic. We have to be more far, far more energy to it. We’re always creating new new dishes, new drinks.

Ashish: Well, how often do you, you know, introduce new menu or changes?

Duncan: We do a wholesale menu change every six months, but we introduce new dishes on a monthly basis. So we constantly, we have a… 

Ashish: But, I mean what’s your I mean, I’m just curious this is amazing. What does that, is that entire loyalty?

Duncan: It does. We have a lot of very, very loyal customers and menu fatigue is an issue everywhere. And if you go to the same place consistently and it’s the same menu, your frequency will drop off because you want to try something new. You might get bored of a few dishes. You want to. And also the environment is changing so much and new trends are coming in.

Ashish: And so how do you keep up with that? Right? I mean, how do you keep your loyal customers informed about these changes or you know?

Duncan: Obviously we have a very strong NPD team who who analyze what is the current trends, what are…

Ashish: NPD? 

Duncan: And new product development.

Ashish: All right. I’m talking about communication.

Duncan: And then we have a marketing team who obviously message what we what’s when we do a new menu launch, we work a lot with influencers. We obviously have our own social panel..

Ashish: That happens every six months.

Duncan: Every six months, yeah. So we have a whole series of restaurant reviews from various publications, influencers. We do a lot of work with our our regular customer base through our social media platforms, and we do a lot of it in the restaurant. When people come into the restaurant, we obviously talk and shout about all of our new dishes and our new drinks that we’ve created. And we do a we’ve, we’ve done a lot of work. I consistently and even through COVID, we consistently changed our menu every six months. And we know a lot of our players, the players we work with in the market who are also competing for the same customer base. Maybe we’re a bit more conservative during COVID. Oh, maybe we should cut back on our NPD work or any innovation that we want to launch. But we were very passionate about continuing doing that.

Ashish: So so I mean, I mean, what you’re saying is really interesting because your I think the way you said it, as a matter of fact, is that, you know, menu fatigue is real and people are kind of getting bored. But isn’t that also the antithesis of, you know, customers keep coming back to have the same food, right?

Duncan: They do. And when we change a menu, there are said that probably 60% of the menu we can’t touch because there are our go to dishes.

Ashish: Yeah, yeah,

Duncan: We have massive followings for them, but there’s also the other 40% that maybe have a seasonal element that maybe work on a local trend, that this particular ingredients become very popular and that’s where we can be creative around is is constantly creating new dishes.

Ashish: What’s the feedback mechanism and how do you know that any of those new 40% dishes one dish has to go and that 60% stack eventually?

Duncan: We have a very scientific approach. We have a food committee. We, the first thing we obviously look at is the trend of sales mix trends. So what is selling, what is not selling. We collect a huge amount of feedback both online and obviously through our teams in the restaurants and we have a structured mechanism for that. So we bring all of that together. And when we do a before we even start looking at a new menu, we really analyze what is working, what is not working, what is the feedback been, what are the operational challenges, some dishes have operational challenges, any supply chain issues we have. Obviously, it’s a big topic right now. What ingredients are we going to struggle with in the future so we maybe have to look at changing a dish to include it. Ingredients are more readily available and obviously we have an NPD team who constantly checking on the local trends in Europe and America and further afield. So what is kind of the next big thing? So all that comes into, into, into a committee of us that really analyze that and then we then develop a new menu.

Ashish: When you say, when you say customer feedback, right? I’m, I, you know, I  of course that’s that’s I’m biased as well because you know we work with the restaurants on the you know, on the technology side, right so we see exactly at times what’s in action versus what’s intent. I see that customer feedback is not that simple, easy or linear as a mechanism because, you know, there’s a lot of bias on, you know, what is your server asking, is there a feedback that customer is really, you know, incentivized or feels like, you know, giving you objectively that, okay, I like the burger, I do like the pizza, like the sandwich like this. How are you collecting this feedback and how objective this is? Like, you know, how much how much is it quantifiable in actionable data or is it still like a feeling restaurant manager by restaurant manager?

Duncan: I think you can categorize it into two forms of feedback. One is anything you receive online So people read reviews, they they put comments on our website, on our social channels, they go on different platforms and they would post feedback. So we have a mechanism to collate all that together. That information is very important, but it’s it’s fairly it’s actually quite limited still and generally it’s quite broad. The feedback is I had a great time, I didn’t have a great time, but this was amazing.

But, but you don’t necessarily get the, the detail you might need to to make actionable because you don’t have we obviously if it’s some of it’s you can ask questions back sometimes you can’t depending on the platform but we also still have the conventional feedback mechanisms with our restaurant team so they every day they log any verbal feedback, they receive, any comments that it might be. I guess when we do have a menu launch, our managers are heavily briefed to go and speak to our guests, ask them about their decision and just get people’s opinion on on the new dishes we’ve launched. So with that, we get thousands and thousands of anecdotal comments a week and we put.

Ashish: On the on the feedback card?

Duncan: No, no……..I think feedback cards we’ve obviously trialed with tablet based systems as well, and that’s been fairly effective. But still the the conversation between the manager and a guest still provides us with the most detailed, I think, feedback we can get. And they are then they report that into us centrally. And then what we do is we collect all that information and generally we look at overriding, we look for trends. So when we have consistent feedback on something, something’s very, very good, the recommendation maybe make this slightly different. When you get multiple, multiple feedback of the same thing, then there’s obviously something very actionable there. That one off feedback. I like this, but it was too salty. We would obviously take it on board, but maybe you wouldn’t action it because that’s one person’s opinion and everyone has a different opinion and we value that. But you’re not going to change your whole menu around one person’s feedback.

Ashish: I think, I think this place is really difficult and interesting that way because you have so many nationalities, literally, you know, different palettes, different perception of, of, you know, a certain dish, certain taste. You know, you want your Shakshouka to be a certain way or you want your, you know, Eggs Benedict is not done this way, you need a muffin versus you …..

Duncan: Yeah. Yeah. 

Ashish: I mean, I’m at times I’m just surprised that, you know, at times when I’m reading, let’s say a restaurant review and I’m choosing a restaurant for myself and and you know, I see these comments invariably where somebody will say, oh, this is not authentic.

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: Oh, you know, I thought it was overrated like five comments. I think this was mind blowing. And I’m like, wow, they’re like too many palettes. Too many nationalities.

Duncan: I know , we’ve just launched a new menu, what, six weeks ago? And we’ve created this new mocktail called Spicy Raspberry. And it’s fresh raspberries. It’s beautiful, and it’s got some chili in it. And this is a spicy, but it’s not over spicy. So it just gives you a bit of warmth from the palate after you drink it. But because we put the word spicy, obviously people’s perception of spicy here around the world is completely different. 

Ashish: Yeah.

Duncan: And actually it’s some people say it’s not spicy enough, some people say it’s too spicy. And I think learnings from that is using words like spicy. It’s very difficult to use because your perception to my perception.

Ashish: Oh, absolutely.

Duncan: Toother people’s perception it’s completely different. And and Dubai especially, and the whole region is such a melting pot of different cultures and different backgrounds. Yeah, it’s fascinating.

Ashish: Yeah. I mean. I’ve seen that. I see that in the US all the time when, you know, my American friends will say, oh, this is really spicy. I will taste and I’ll say, all right, this is medium spicy.

Duncan: Yeah, yeah.

Ashish: And then my Mexican friend will taste it and he’ll say, well yeah, and he’ll like just put a ton of tabasco on it and I’m like, oh my God.

Duncan: Yeah, yeah. So. Yep. And, we’re obviously constantly looking at these, these feedback we receive and we, but it enables us to be really dynamic. And when we launch a new menu and again, going back to us being our own brand, we, we, we have the ability, we have a blank canvas to work with and obviously we’re very respectful of our brand positioning and we will always maintain that. But we can can we can mold the menus to be really customer centric.

Ashish: You know, on that point, you know, being customer centric, do you also look at the demographic as well as, let’s say, some slice of nationality or what kind of customers actually come? Because I’m I mean, come to Bateel I I’m assuming that because I’m sure you are in the tourist heavy centers and you’re also in, you know, local heavy centers. Right. So what’s your like, do you guys track that? Do you guys make your decisions based on that? And what do you identify as like, you know, a couple of demographics that that you know are yours?

Duncan: Yeah. And I think this is one of the really exciting things about Cafe Bateel  we actually have three or four core customer bases that use this very differently, whether we have a lot of the Emirati in and in Saudi Saudi customer base who uses us a lot in the evenings for coffee and cake and places to meet really, really popular, we didn’t have where we were in business centers. So we have a number of restaurants are located in business centers and we get used a lot for business lunches and they come in at a generally fairly more healthy conscious and they will happily order a salad or pasta or a main course, seafood and steak, and they’ll have a really sophisticated meal with us.

And then we also, in our residential locations, we have a lot of predominantly expats who come in and we use this for breakfast and coffees and meetings with their friends and they’re a very social environment. So we’ve managed to create an offering that appeals to different groups. And what we see location by location is some stronger in one group than the other based upon the local demographic.

So but with that, we do maintain the same menu in all locations. We just know in this location the cakes will do particularly well, this location our breakfast items will do very, very well. And now you’ve got the the the fourth dynamic, which is delivery, which is obviously across the board in all of our locations. But again, each location might have a different type of sales mix.

So when we develop the menus, we know in advance we well, we have a strong idea this dish will do particularly well here. But to maintain, I think when you have a name above the door and you have a really strong brand equity and brand following, we need to offer the same consistent product and the same menu in all locations. And it’s weird if you look at it across the whole region, we look at each of our categories

in the menu. The top selling dish in each category is the same every market in every single location. So we have a Chicken Fusilli that’s our top pasta in every single market, in every single cafe. Our Date Pudding is our top selling dessert in every single location. 

Ashish: So those are the dishes that get you the loyalty or the brand positioning.

Duncan: Yeah, and that crosses all borders, all demographics. That is what people come to us that they love us for. And then in each environment, maybe a couple of dishes that do particularly well don’t do well in other locations. But generally our menu seems to be kind of universally accepted, which is which I think is one of the reasons for our success.

Ashish: That’s great. Were you guys delivering before the pandemic?

Duncan: We were and we were fairly active. We did, it’s probably kind of manually to a lot of extent, but a sizable component of our business was delivery, particularly in the UAE. We I think probably 3 to 4 years before COVID, we really we got a…

Ashish:  You’re talking about the cafe food, right?

Duncan:  Yeah, Yeah, we got our own fleet, we got our own drivers. We had a call center and we were on all the aggregators and we were fairly active and I think we did particularly well with people having lunch and breakfast. So the people in offices would order from us and people having breakfast at home. COVID significantly accelerated that in terms of we saw a sizable uplift in both in monetary terms and as a percentage of our total sales. But ironically, every week, week on week that the percentage mix is actually dropping slightly. As a value it is still increasing. But the dine in businesses accelerated so much through the recovery and even now, week on week, our dining is growing at a much quicker pace than delivery. So deliveries going back towards not quite what it was as a percentage, but it is fairly close.

Ashish: Did you did you discover something that given that you guys were active before pandemic as well in delivery, did you discover that certain items were delivery focused or delivery friendly pre-pandemic and suddenly during pandemic, you probably had to deliver almost everything in the menu, or at least you know.

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: Sometime. Did that change something for you in packaging? You had to rethink something?

Duncan:  On non menu items, so things like we have a big range of croissants and pastries and that sort of things. All of our breads we have baguettes, sourdoughs  and all these we have 20 different types of bread that those items exploded during COVID. I think people maybe would have bought them from a supermarket. We were less likely to buy it from there and we saw this big uptake and that’s maintained post COVID. So people are buying a lot more non-menu items offers. And the other thing is our actually our retail range, so Bateel has a very wide retail range of different types of boxes, different products, obviously dates and chocolate related and biscuits. We have a small selection in all of our restaurants. We through through COVID again, people probably were less likely to go to malls or go to one of our boutiques, so we saw a fairly sizable uplift in sales of those.  So yeah, I think our product range got a lot broader through COVID.

We, it forced us to look at delivery very differently. We’re much more digitized now in our delivery experience. We obviously tried to consolidate it, remove thousands of tablets from all of our all of our restaurants and try and simplify it.

But ironically, we thought by now we would have had no requirement for a call center. But that’s if we still have that. We still we still have the same number of agents we had before COVID and during COVID.

Ashish: Have we helped you in that?

Duncan:  Sorry? 

Ashish: Have we, has Posist helped you? 

Duncan: It will do. We are waiting we’re still waiting for the final sites to be converted into positions.

Ashish: Okay.

Duncan: Once we have everyone okay, we will then do it fully integrated call center into Posist, because currently our old legacy system wasn’t into interface at all with our call center. So they were getting a printed bill in the restaurant, then having to go into POS and punching it. Now, through all of the investments we’ve made over the last 9-12 months, it’ll be fully automated, which is amazing.

Ashish: Yeah, I think the call center experience will change things visibly. 

Duncan: Yeah. But maybe it’s to do with our customer base. We have a fairly broad and maybe some we still have a lot of elder demographics who use us a lot and they’re still very keen to call up. 

Ashish: And you know, it’s, I mean I, I feel that people who still call, you know, that’s, that’s a great warmth for the brand. 

Duncan: It is. It is. It’s really warm. They call up and they say, can I speak to Vanessa, please? So they’ll ask for the call center agent they want to speak to. And I think another driver, we have a huge amount of customization, so we have a broad menu, 120 dishes on the menu, but 90% of all cheques that go into the kitchen will have some customization. Can you add this? Can you remove this from a particular dish? And I think when people are ordering through an aggregator, maybe they don’t have trust with that. Well, those comments go through or not.

Ashish: Somebody is reading that or not, right? Yeah.

Duncan: So maybe it’s easier to call up. Also, they don’t have to stand there and type all these comments. It’s probably easier. Everyone’s fast paced. So I’ll just call them up and say, I don’t want this, can you add this? And on some of our orders, we have like six or seven comments on one particular dish because I know I did you say, well, but they want to customize it to how they like it. And we have a very strong ethos that we will say we’ll never say no. So we’ll try it. If we have it in the restaurant, we’ll cook it for them.

Ashish: No, I mean, you having a call center in today’s time, that speaks volumes. Honestly, I’m, I’m going to quote this, you know for sure. Like, this is amazing because not I mean, I don’t know many brands who can, you know, as a as a standalone brand as well as a you know, who can boast of a need for a call center. That’s actually quite amazing. 

Duncan: And we expect it by now because obviously pre-COVID, we saw a significant decline in the orders as the world became aggregator led. And but I would say since the reopening of the first wave, we’ve all of our volumes of the call center has not changed.

Ashish: Yeah, because, because I’ll share my experience, I think back in New Delhi, India, there’s only one restaurant who I call even till today. There’s only one restaurant and I call them because I remember their number and because I call them and I know exactly what I need to order. And that’s comfort food for me. And I never even checked whether they are on an aggregate or not.

Duncan: Yeah

Ashish: There’s only one restaurant, like there’s no other restaurant where, you know, I have this behavior. But I can tell you that, like, if I think you know, my emotions, you know, while ordering from them are very personal, it’s like I’m just just calling everybody and saying, hey, just send my food, it’s just like that.

Duncan: Yeah. And I also I think there’s an element that the consumer’s an element of the consumers now know the business model of the aggregators and that they are taking a sizable percentage. And it’s obviously been heavily documented around the world now. And I think those people that would rather order direct and..

Ashish:  You feel that people are sensitive about that?

Duncan: Not everyone and I think selfishly I think more people should be. And because obviously there are huge percentages going to these aggregators. So I think some of our more savvy consumers would go out of their way to order direct, that is to make sure that the restaurant that they love gets all their money. They don’t want to be giving 20%, 30%, 40% or whatever model.

Ashish:  That’s so cool to feel. I think that, you know, on that note, I think a lot has been said and talked about, you know, aggregators across the world. And again, you know, from from our vantage point to be like we kind of see, you know, so many markets, some 18 top aggregators across geographies in the world and the ones who matter the significant chunk. And we see a similar dynamic between operators, brands and, you know, aggregators. There was a pre-pandemic world and then there was a pandemic world and now this is the world which is post everything like I feel today is like a very settled, you know, one for now, but what do you think today about aggregators as a as a business driver? You know, and I’m I’m asking this question, this is a fairly open question I want to understand what’s your outlook as of today with their significance, your bottom line, the negative hit in the bottom line, but at the same time, customer acquisition are, you know, logistics apart. How do you look at it?

Duncan: I think the industry needs to value them as a as a revenue channel and that they need to be respected. There’s questions on their ethics as questions on their service standards. At the end of the day, they drive business revenues to us and there were times when we were very dependent on them. Thankfully, the dependence has dropped as the industry has recovered and people are going back to restaurants again so that they they bring us customers that we couldn’t reach ourselves for sure.

They provide a logistics service that is flexible, adaptable. We could never handle ourselves with the number of drivers. So they definitely added value component to our business, both commercially and obviously and from a sales perspective as well. 

What I, the challenge we have is some of the ethics because they are technically our shop fronts and they’re also of delivery service at home, so we don’t see the customer, we don’t integrate with customers and interact with them at all. And then sometimes our approach to customer service and hospitality, the role tech companies, their main interest is not the hospitality or delivering our food in the best quality. It’s their tech platform and data acquisition, whatever you want to call them.

So the challenges we have is some of their practices are not in line with what we would do if it was our own delivery and we’re constantly having to work with them on this. And it is a big challenge and obviously it is a massive bone of contention of the industry and for me, a personal issue I have, which again we’re working with through the what was the DRG now the UAERG is this is their ethics with their drivers and their safety.

There is a huge problem here with driver and road safety and it’s down to, unfortunately, the business model that the aggregators have and the last mile operators have where they only pay the drivers per delivery. So what it does is it creates a culture of I need to get these deliveries done as quick as possible because the driver.

Ashish: You mean there’s no minimum?

Duncan: No, and there’s no benefits. So most of the aggregators don’t give any benefits.

Ashish: But they’re not like on a minimum salary?

Duncan: No, no. So they get paid a different amount per delivery. So what happens is they want to do as many deliveries as possible to that, and especially in in Dubai, there’s a very big delivery peak in the evening from 6 to 10 p.m. I think 80% of orders go out or something crazy like that. So they want to try and do as many deliveries as possible, which means they take more risks on the road and they drive quicker.

They would maybe drive where they shouldn’t drive or in a way they shouldn’t drive because they want to been happening. Like, yeah, there is a number and Dubai police have reported a number of fatalities this year alone with delivery drivers and all and we’re working with the authorities and the aggregators. Can we change that model? So there is no risks being taken or the risk to very little from a driver perspective? Let’s look at maybe giving them some fixed benefits, whether it includes a base salary or some.

Ashish: Sort of security. Security.

Duncan: So they’re going to still and they’re not earning big money. It’s unfortunately one of the lowest paid jobs in the in the industry anyway. But don’t don’t put your drivers at risk because they are getting in accidents. The numbers are losing that.

Ashish: But that’s a very important and I’m sure not looked at you know, component of this business. Right. But I think not many people talk about that. No fact. In fact, honestly, you’re the only one who has talked about that.

Duncan: Okay.

Ashish: I mean, I haven’t heard anyone talk about that.

Duncan: It’s something I’m personally pretty active on. And I think I can speak for most restaurant operators here. Our own drivers don’t have that business. They’re not that commission only model. They all have base salaries. In fact, we don’t pay anything for delivery to our drivers. So we have dozens of drivers working for us every day. They have a fixed salary and they don’t get any incentives for going crazy and driving as many deliveries as possible a day and drive. 

In four and a half years we haven’t had a single accident with any of our drivers. And I think that culturally we’ve I mean, we spend a lot of time with them on training, driving standards. We make sure they have the right PPE and the trip on the bikes and that we then the bikes they are driving a safe, well maintained service. Whereas I think if a driver is responsible for his own servicing of his own bike, is he going to be as diligent? Maybe yeah, because it’s money in his own pocket. Should the aggregators or the other subcontractors of the aggregators be responsible for making sure the bikes are in good working condition? And I think that’s and we as an industry need to face that because they are representing us when they are delivering our food and we would would hate for any accidents to happen with one of our deliveries. 

Ashish: And I think I think keeping it like absolutely this wild and also it’s for nothing. I mean you’re just delivering food 5 minutes early. Yeah I mean everything is taken care of. I’m sure like if an aggregate is delivering your food, let’s say in 35 minutes. I’m sure your drivers will deliver it in 42 at max, even if they’re like that, keeping it slow, they’re keeping it right. You know, keeping the food boxes in the correct way, if they don’t have an incentive to be faster than to how late is that going to be?

Duncan: I think I would say it’s even less not I would say is a matter of probably one or 2 minutes difference but that the difference it makes in their safety is massive. And I think that’s something that the industry needs to face because, yeah, it’s a big problem. 

Ashish: Is it something that your and then, you know, that also brings me to UAERG You know, is it something that you have initiated, you know, is it a dialog happening with aggregators already about this?

Duncan: There is, and also more importantly with with the authorities, for example, the Dubai police are very much supporting us because they have an overall objective to reduce traffic accidents and fatalities. And unfortunately for them, a a big component of that is delivery drivers. So they’re fully, fully supportive, but it needs to look at that, their employment contracts and to look at the commercially how that set up and also they get very or no training from from the aggregators on road safety..

Ashish: Because these are like third party contractors and I’m sure aggregators have and that’s true almost across the world. I mean there’s not even a comment here, but I’m sure like people are orchestrating it like differently. But I think the objective is same that they want to most of the aggregators like they want to create immunity between them and, you know, the employment of that contractor and they create layers in between to, you know, say hey we have nothing to do with you. You are a gig worker which is fair and we are giving an opportunity to earn. 

But yeah. No I think that’s, that’s, that’s, that’s disturbing but at the same time I think what are you talking about I hope that aggregators will also respond, you know, in a positive way, because this is about the longevity of this entire enterprise. It is. It’s not really about today or today’s profit or today’s loss or today’s cost. I think it’s really about longevity. If this has to survive, this has to survive right.

Duncan: And we have a moral objective, all of us, to look after the people that work for us, whether they’re directly employed by us or not. And then the day they’re wearing our logos and there is an accountability for that. And I think we all need to be responsible for that and create an environment where everyone can benefit, but also that no one’s taking undue risks like they are now. And so I think we will make progress on this. And it’s a it’s a it’s a hot topic. I think it’s reached the consumer base as well. They see it when they drive on the road. They see the drivers on the side of the road after an accident. And I think everyone is aware of it. It’s just I think action needs to be taken and I think I’ll just create a much better environment for the drivers. And there are thousands out there. I think they did an amazing job. It’s 52 degrees yesterday.

Ashish:  Yeah.

Duncan: And they work 24 hours.They don’t have the lunch break where they’re not allowed to go. They are out on the road and they’re wearing helmets. And it’s tough conditions.

Ashish: Yeah, absolutely. 

Duncan: And I think we all have a responsibility. We’ve actually started in the last couple of years, in the summer months, we give out water and dates to all of our drivers, whether they’re either our own drivers or third party. They’re coming in to pick it all the way. We give them a small glass of water and a date just to kind of make them refuel before they go back out in the heat again.

Ashish: No, no, absolutely. That’s so good to hear.

Duncan: And it is yes, it’s not the best of conditions. The winter’s not too bad. It’s fairly bearable. But not only are they having to risk the roads, it’s the heat as well. So, yeah, so I think they have a right to be looked after as well.

Ashish: What about the percentage you’re talking about that aggregator is, you know, charging a large chunk and I think that the chunk is significant. I think restaurants have you know, the aggregators have definitely fueled the business top line. You know, it has increased your access to customers, has increased customers, access to you, has increased a lot of good things, you know, from reach, discovery, customer acquisition perspective. But then the chunk that they take in return is also, you know, it’s also left restaurants fighting for the bottom line, which was definitely never the order. You know, before. You know, their stores were always a high gross margin business and had like luxury of a bottomline like, you know, you could you you didn’t need to count pennies right,  now you have to , so you know what do you think needs to be done there if at all?

Duncan: Look it’s it’s a difficult question because commercially restaurants have the choice to either to go on these aggregators or not.

Ashish: No, I don’t think so. I don’t think that restaurants have a choice. I think these are marketplaces. You have to be there.

Duncan:  No, but commercially there is the we analyze every contract we go into, we do the feasibility because we’re not we’re not going to go in there if we could lose money. So we make sure that commercially it’s vital. We know our margin is going to be diluted by going on that. But then you have to compensate with the increased volumes they have a far bigger marketing reach.

Their marketing budgets are astronomical compared to what we could ever afford ourselves. They have a fund generally they have a good tech platform that we would it cost us millions to to create a comparative one ourselves. They reach customers that we couldn’t reach. So, yes, there is a margin issue without doubt and but the volumes do compensate for that regard. And if one of the aggregators came in with a very high percentage that we think, okay, that’s not viable for us, we wouldn’t do it. And we’ve done that in the past.

Ashish: But do you also negotiate a contract, basis, you know, who’s delivering because in case you are delivering through your own fleet an aggregator’s order, then you only pay the customer acquisition cost.

Duncan: So they have two models, most of them. One is the marketplace and one is a regular model.  

Ashish: So. So there is a hybrid. 

Duncan: Yeah. 

Ashish: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Okay.

Duncan: We, we, we have a team that works on that and we try and work that to our advantage as much as possible. 

Ashish: But I think your own delivery also fleet also costs. It actually costs higher, no? 

Duncan: Look, we do some analysis on the difference between most of the aggregators and us doing it ourselves, it’s not many miles away, but again, we look after our drivers quite well. We we we…

Ashish: I understand that, I’m just talking purely from economics.

Duncan: Yeah so I think people think of these these percentage might well that’s a lot of money but you need to also factor in what would be the cost if we were delivering ourselves and taking the orders, credit card, or so. Obviously there is a sizable amount that’s still retained by the aggregators and I think the numbers that they charge for small independent restaurants is criminal. The larger groups like ourselves and the big players, we have much better rates. And I think it’s not great that a small independent restaurant whose probably a family business comes into the market and they want to start doing delivery and they’re getting charged these astronomical like independent rates, I think that’s a low market that’s been capped. So if you are one of the cities in New York, Chicago, I think if they put a cap on what percentages these aggregators can charge, and I think the UAE should perhaps look at that as well because….

Ashish: I think I personally believe that, you know, for the standalone market aggregators have this, you know, very interesting dynamic wherein like from a small ticket item restaurant, they lose money whenever they charge a high percentage because of the cost of delivery is high. Yeah. And from a very high ticket good AOV you know sort of restaurant they actually make a lot of money even in the smaller percentage because right. And, and then everything in between. But I think that people who actually benefit the most from the aggregators in the standalone restaurants is either the highest AOV because volume.

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: And or the lowest AOV because the guy will have been able to deliver the item at the same price.

Duncan: If you are falling into 10-12 doing drama, paying 30% of that is.

Ashish: Yeah, yeah. And I think it’s the middle that is, I think you know people in the center that are that are I am sure really fighting for those pennies, you know and then margins.

Duncan: And I think another element that hasn’t been able to be addressed here yet because of the contracts they have with the operators is in a lot of markets, restaurants charge a slightly higher price for delivery to cover the cost of the packaging. And unfortunately in this market right now, that’s not permitted through the contract. So that’s again something that needs to be addressed and is I know a hot topic, especially within the UAERG is how can we facilitate that like other markets have because at the end of day, some of that cost may be have to be borne by the customer because you’re getting the privilege of having it delivered to your house.

And and the other thing which again is optional, we know we don’t partake, is some of the aggregators have become a very heavy discount platform. So not only are you paying huge commission you’re also discounting it to attract the customers, and if you don’t discount on those platforms, you don’t get the volumes. So it’s unfortunately for some operators, that’s a vicious circle. You’re paying high commissions and you’re giving a discount. 

So yeah, and again, that really hits the small players, the independent restaurants who don’t have the volumes to get the best deals out of that are the aggregators as well. But as always, I think we have we are philosophies. We will maintain a blended approach where we will have our own drivers, will have our own fleet, will also offer the marketplace options where we do the deliveries on behalf of the aggregators as and when it’s available. And I think…

Ashish: Oh, you do that? 

Duncan: Yeah. That’s something that we’ve, we’ve taken advantage from in. 

Ashish: Opening your fleet up to them for downtime.

Duncan: Yeah. Yeah. Or sometimes.

Ashish:  It’s either low tide .

Duncan: Or when there’s the delivery areas exceeds their limit. So we would then fulfill that order also. But that so it maintains us and obviously is a lower percentage rent as well. So yeah, but it’s a constant dynamic looking at it. But I think as long as you maintain a real analytic approach to how your deliveries come in and maximizing, we unfortunately we have to live with the aggregators. It’s part of life and it’s absolute.

Ashish:  I think I think there’s, you know, my personal view, while I’m asking you this question, I think my view is not really against or for I think I believe that aggregators are very important, you know, stakeholder in this entire puzzle and that they’re going to remain they’re going to sustain for sure. You know, I think I think the equilibrium needs to be reached on cap, you know, so not a win lose sort of proposition, right.

Because because also I think the extra pressure, most of the aggregators for right or wrong reasons is that they as a business are in a losing margin proposition while they’re serving businesses such as yours who was supposed to return profit.

So and that creates a fundamental divide where, you know, that’s why heavy discounting happens, right? Because life occurs to an aggregator as a customer acquisition problem. And then if you if I’m going to throw X money, my top line will go up by, let’s say 3X, right? And I don’t really care about negative margins while for somebody like you, if you’re if somebody tells you that with doubling your top line, your negative margin is also going double, you know, at the bottom, you’ll stay away from that. So that’s out.

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: Yes, I think that’s where I feel there’s a fundamental, you know, you know, misalignment between these two businesses I think if if an aggregator tries to be prosperous at the bottom line themselves I think so many things, they will also start, you know, aligning with the restaurant. 

Duncan: Yeah, there is a big disconnect and and then there’s no alignment at all in many regards of what they’re doing versus what the restaurants are doing or what the officials want to do So yeah, I think and their approach has always been very standoffish as well. They always claim that their decision makers are sitting in a different city in the world. So this is it. Take it or leave it and.

Ashish: I mean that’s it. Yeah. I mean that’s a curse of the big tech in general. I think you can’t really blame them fully, but yeah that’s true. I think losing the sight of our localizing, you know fully because restaurants is a local problem.

Duncan: Yeah.

Ashish: Yeah it’s you know I call, restaurants geographically challenged entities that are, you know at a store level your, your, your problems, your happiness anything is going to come from like three miles or four miles.

Duncan: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

Ashish: So Duncan what, what you know, what do you do to nurture your mind? What’s your mind gym? You know, you read books, you read podcasts, you talk to people, what’s your what gets you going and, you know, help you broaden or deepen your perspective?

Duncan: I, I, love going out for restaurant experiences and it’s something that kind of really most it’s not even linked to what I do with Bateel.  I just love trying new things and going out. So my kind of go to activity outside of work is going to try new restaurant.  

Ashish: Great, we should be friends.

Duncan: Even if it’s in sat worth some little stalls selling roti or whatever it may be. I want to try it and yeah, it just fascinates me to go and try new places. And when I travel, my family hates it. They want to go to the beach, they want to go to see landmarks. So they want to go to a museum. I want to go to restaurants or a food stall or a coffee shop or, yeah, it’s that’s my real motivation. So and again, I’d much rather go and eat it and see it rather than read about it in a book or listen to it on a podcast. I want to…

Ashish:  Tell me or give me some recommendations. Let’s see, what was the last experience or some interesting restaurants around Dubai, you know, for the experience, not even like maybe a dish in the restaurant. When I ask people for recommendations. I don’t ask for a recommendation on the restaurant I ask for the dish, what should I go and have then?

Duncan:  Uh, that’s a good one. Experience wise, couple of times recently I’ve been to Lucky Fish if you know on the on the Palm. It’s a stunning restaurant beach really really nice, just really relaxing really. It’s called Lucky Fish. It’s Palm Beach. Really, really good bar in there. Really nice. They have a DJ very, very chilled, really nice, I would say. But the food is amazing. The services, they have the best seafood. Really, really good seafood. 

Ashish:  Okay, my Saturday is set.

Duncan: Yeah, really nice environment. But again, it’s not too showy, it’s not too all about Instagram, it’s just generally a great experience. It’s for people who just want a genuine experience, have something a bit more original, not it’s not uber party, it’s not the showy place to be. It’s just a really, really nice environment and I think it’s locally created. Really, really good concept. Now, that sort of thing. Really. I really appreciate it because yes, we love going to the big brands out here that come from New York or London or France, whatever, and it’s great to go and try those restaurants. But this is something that’s a bit I think it feels a bit more authentic to Dubai without the you doesn’t serve Arabic food or anything. But it’s just it’s just locally created and it’s fantastic.

Ashish: And who do you look up to like professionally, you know who inspires you? You know, is there somebody who inspires you for, you know, who’s also approachable close or you see them in your peers, in your, you know, maybe maybe even now that UAERG, you are talking to a lot of them. Like, you know, who do you think who really inspires you or you believe is really doing amazing work in their area?

Duncan: I think through my career, I’ve had different people I’ve aspired to and and worked with or followed or watched one of them I work with briefly on a couple of projects, but I’ve I’ve really been fascinated by his creativity, what he’s credited is Atul Kochhar. So he’s a Michelin star chef from London, a number of different entities. I think he was the first Indian Michelin starred restaurant in London.

Ashish: Which one? 

Duncan: Atul Kochhar.

Ashish: Oh, yeah, yeah. Of course.

Duncan: When I was with Landmark, we created Zafron with him. And he did a lot of work with that. Fascinating guy. And he’s created amazing dishes, obviously,all of it based around Indian cuisine, but not in India. So he’s done it here, he’s done it in Europe and using a lot of its locally sourced ingredients.

Ashish: London was Tamarind, right. London was…? 

Duncan: No, it was. Oh, no, I forgot the name. Now it’s in Mayfair. He’s now got two or three in London. He’s got one in Marlow as well. I look up what’s it called.

Ashish: I think he was doing something in Bombay, you know Mumbai recently.

Duncan: Okay. He did a lot of pop ups and, and but yeah, so he’s something really completely outside of the environment that he should be. And he does amazing work and he’s got a really strong following in the UK now he’s on TV, he’s got his books but he just does really good food. Simple lots of it’s local ingredients, so Indian flavors but using British meats, British seafood. Yeah. So I’ve really enjoyed my experience working with him. Yeah, great guy. And he’s had his ups and downs in his career, but he’s carried on his.

Ashish:  Yeah, yeah, I remember the one. Here in Dubai right? And I think he was in this hotel.

Duncan: In this hotel yeah. 

Ashish: So Duncan, people who are going to watch this are you know people from the industry aspiring as frontiers as well as these established ones from legends in making you know, to to a lot of a lot of people who will aspire to be, you know, where you are and beyond. What do you think? You know, today you went up if you had to, you know, talk to the industry or people who are watching, what would be the words of advice you will have for them as restaurant operators or managers or owners of the brand you know, for the industry to be in the industry?

Duncan: I think the overriding thing, whatever you do, is to remain customer centric, because in the world, with everything that’s going on now, with the introduction of a lot of tech, we’re doing things a lot differently to how they were before. Sometimes it’s easy to get sidetracked and do things because it looks like it’s the right way to do it or the right thing to do. But at the end of day, everything must also benefit the end consumer who’s going to have your product to the end of day. And I think whether it’s your marketing approach, whether it’s your systems of operations or everyone should remain whatever you do, think of the customer’s perspective because at the end of the day, we’re nothing without our customers and whether it’s how we handle our staff, keeping them motivated again, everything has a consequence and it ripples down to what what the guest experiences. And it’s so easy in this world now that you can get sidetracked and divert from that. And I think that’s when some businesses struggle because they become less focused on their on the end consumer what they want, what they need and making sure that everyone is focused on that. So all the good organizations and there are hundreds of them in this market now are all still keeping that focus on what does the guests want. And I think if we we as operators and do that, then we stand a much better chance of being successful and growing and succeeding in what we want to achieve.

Ashish: I mean, great piece of advice coming from somebody who, you know, so far was, had the formative years, you know, of the career in an area which was absolutely guest centric, you know, and now I think at the end of this conversation, I can clearly see why you love Bateel, because for me, what stands out is the fact that, you know, from golf clubs and, you know, from loyal customer base to, you know, coming to a brand which is just not a cafe but the fact that you have customers still calling you, you still have call centers and I think tells me that there’s a massive brand loyalty that Bateel has created and that is and you guys are taking care of that. So I think it’s a very clear DNA match, you know, as an observer.

So thanks, Duncan. Thanks for being on the RestrocastI love this conversation. And I’m sure people are going to watch this. You know, will actually get enriched. I’m coming out, you know, definitely more enriched. Thank you. 

Duncan: Thank you very much. Pleasure.