Chris Incorvati: 

Hi, I’m Christian Incorvati. I’m the Chief Technology Officer at Jack’s Family Restaurants. I got a degree in journalism.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

And you’re right now the CTO? 

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah. 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Brilliant.

 

Chris Incorvati: 

I’d always loved computers, so I wasn’t afraid of asking the right questions and trying to get more involved. Over time, I figured out, oh, this is what a network switch does. This is how you program an AP. This is how you get your network running optimally. And these are the types of security measures you do. And this is PCI compliance. And my passion was systems, learning how everything worked together. And the more I did it, the better I got at it. And I’ve always told my mind yourself, you work for them, not the other way around, right?

We’re in service of them because they make the money in the store. So we’ve got to make sure that they’re up, that they have all the white glove experience they can. We try to do everything we can to make sure that they feel like we’re there for them. And then when you have that buy-in and you’ve given that good experience, they pass it on to the guests. Don’t be afraid to fail the first time. And if you do, learn from that mistake and use it as a motivation for the future. You know, I had a poster of Michael Jordan on my wall when I was a kid. And he said he missed so many thousands of shots. You know, but look at what he did in his career, right? But he learned from those mistakes and got better.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Hi, welcome to Restrocast. Today, my guest is Chris Incorvati. He’s the CTO at Jack’s Family Restaurants.

Chris’s experience starts from Legal Seafoods to Au Bon Pain to Panera and to now Jack’s. But the most interesting thing about his journey is his curiosity and his problem-solving attitude, his zeal to learn made him CTO in the hospitality space while he’s not carrying a technical education degree. So for me, the most exciting bit was somebody who comes from Bachelor of Arts in Communication got into restaurants and not only worked their way up, but I think worked their way tangentially out into the world of technology. And what’s most astonishing is that he’s just not your regular CTO. Throughout this journey, he has operated at cutting and bleeding edge of technology. Do watch.

 

Welcome to Restrocast. Chris, welcome to Restoracost. Thank you for agreeing to do this.

 

Chris Incorvati: 

No, thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here. 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Chris, we are going to, we have a lot to talk about the tech and what’s happening in the restaurant tech world. You know, I’m sure you are on to, you know, a lot of cool things. And we are also here at MurTech. So I would like to know what is it that is keeping you up, you know, nowadays. But we would like to start with the start. I believe, and you know, we had a chat, I believe that people don’t really choose restaurant industry themselves. So what happened?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

It all started in high school. So I started working for Boston Chicken before it was Boston Market, a long time ago. And I fell in love with the pace of the industry, right? And I was, you know, just a cashier, didn’t have a lot of responsibility back then. But the more that I got into it, the more I wanted to do. Ended up, you know, working more. That led to other opportunities. Ended up working for a pizza chain in Massachusetts called Papa Gino’s Pizza. And right out of college, I became a general manager for them. It was a really fun experience. I learned a ton about the quick service industry and really what that was like. 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

What were you doing?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

I was doing everything. I was managing the restaurant as a general manager, ringing in orders on a DOS prompted online system. Not online, but, you know, ordering system. And then we didn’t take credit cards back then. It was a while ago. So very different.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

What year was this? 

 

Chris Incorvati: 

It’s been 2000, 99, 2000. 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

And you mean Papa Gino’s was not accepting credit cards?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah, they just hadn’t put it in yet. Yeah, it was all in cash only. So it had really, you know, things have really evolved over time, right? But that was my first foray into running a restaurant myself. From there, I went to full service. I went to work for Bennigan’s Grill and Tavern. Wanted to get more involved and understand more about the industry. Really get to learn full service, understand the bar business. That was new to me. Understand how everything worked in more of a full service environment. And then the way of knowing us. And that’s really when I fell in love with restaurants because it was all about hospitality, right? And to this day, that’s really important to me. But I’ll get into that a little bit later. So from there, I got an opportunity to work for more of a, not fine dining, but a little bit finer dining, Legal Seafoods in Boston. And it was a family owned restaurant group, very passionate about their people, about their service and their food quality. And it really like just, it was amazing time to be there. And that’s when I got into tech.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

But yeah, you know, that transition, I’m gonna go deeper in that. But before that, so where did you grow up? And, you know, was there any other one in the family who was in the restaurant business? Or did you see restaurant business up close, you know, as an outsider?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah, it was. So I grew up in Natick, Massachusetts. And I have a younger brother and sister. And we had a tight knit Italian family. Love food, love hospitality, love entertaining. But no one in our family really had gotten into it that much. And I do have some relatives now that have gotten into it. I think they’ve experienced what, you know, restaurant life is like. And they really enjoy it. But at the time, it was just me. Yeah. And so very different path. And it was hard for my family to adjust because the hours are different. You’re working different hours, late at night, weekends. So that was a lot. But, you know, I’ve loved it. So every bit of the journey.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

I mean, from not many people have actually jumped from a non-tech, you know, career. And especially if you’re starting them in the restaurant at the bottom. I really want to know how the tech transition happened. But more than that, you know, are you tech? Like, did you have a qualification? No.

 

Chris Incorvati: 

So I got a degree in journalism.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

And you’re right now on the CTO?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Brilliant. This is… tell me, how did the transition happen?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

All accidental. So in 2005, 2006, when I was at Legal’s, we were looking at a new point of sale system. And they wanted to do some really different things. We had an inspirational leader. His name was Ken Chaison. He was our CIO at the time. Really forethought about what we could do to elevate the guest experience in the restaurants. And so we were introducing handheld table-side service, pay-at-table devices for payment. We were the first restaurant group to use Cisco VoIP phone systems in the United States. And so we introduced the first enterprise point of sale system in the US, which was really ahead of its time. 

 

Chris Incorvati: 

And it did some amazing things. And I fell in love with it because I really was passionate about the guests and what it could do for them. That also helped the staff really to elevate their game, to help them get more tips, to get better service, overall improve the quality. And then it helped with sales. So we saw some amazing things. We had 20% faster table turns, 100% non-alcoholic beverage mix increase because the servers forget to ring that in. But if you’re doing it table side, you capture that. 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Because that was on handheld? 

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah, because it was on handheld devices at the table. We had a server would be featuring and after taking a drink order, then the drinks would hit the table while the server was still there. Again, 2006, this is pretty early on. It was pretty impressive. So people were really wowed by that. We talked about the credit card never leaving your hand and having payment table side, which is a big change for people. They didn’t understand, why do I have to do this? But when we explained, this is a new process. It’s here for you. You can use it. And then we saw tips go up because all of a sudden we had tip percentages on the devices. So really advantageous for everybody. And it just helped move the dining experience and make it a little bit more flawless. And I started training that. And I wrote most of the training program for legals. And as that came about, I started to get involved more and more with the IT department and rolled out the system. And after that, I was asked to stay on. Became a systems manager for a few years and really kind of… 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

How large was this operation? Give me a view into that. 

 

Chris Incorvati: 

34 locations up and down the East Coast. We had six people in IT. So small group. The restaurants did really well. They had a higher check average back then. I think, again, early 2000s, we’re probably in the mid 30 range for a check. For one individual. So if you had two, it was around $60 or $70. And so just a different type of operation. But they were very passionate about making sure all the product was fresh as can be. Three days or less were they in the walk-in cooler and never frozen. And if it was over that, they would throw it away or donate it. So really passionate about just the type of experience the guests had. So it was a great learning experience.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

That is amazing. And I mean, I’m just curious. This is a nerd question. What kind of Cisco devices were you using?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

I don’t remember the model of phone. But they were one of the first office phone models that were out there.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Yeah, that sounds quite cool. Because I didn’t know. 2006 was quite early for what all you were telling me.

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah. And actually, the owner had me put a Cisco phone in his house so he could dial a three-digit store number. So he could just get a hold of the managers when he wanted to, which was pretty neat.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Got it. I mean, while this experience was going on, did you learn the chops of networking? And what kind of… I’m actually genuinely curious, right? Somebody who’s not academically, technically trained or has a technical degree and learns on the job. And I’m a big believer of learning on the job for almost everything. But then technology can go really technical at times, especially networking and all of that. So to what extent was that training going on?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Sure. So as a small team, we had to be very hands-on, right? So I had to learn the ins and outs of a little bit of everything, enough to be dangerous, right? Not necessarily enough to code everything, but enough to understand how the processes work. And I worked with some really great people that were patient and would ask a lot of questions, right? But I also had always loved computers. So I wasn’t afraid of asking the right questions and trying to get more involved. And so over time, I figured out, oh, this is what a network switch does. This is how you program an AP. This is how you get your network running optimally. And these are the types of security measures you do. And this is PCI compliancy. And so all that stuff kind of came into play. And my passion was systems, learning how everything worked together. And the more I did it, the better I got at it. And then just working with people. And you forget sometimes, especially when you get caught up in work and in your day-to-day, that everything you do is around people, right? It’s all about the people and how you engage with them and how you approach things and then work with them.

 

And I learned over time, my superpower at work was understanding I could take what an operator was saying. And I could take what people at the office wanted. And I could combine them and tell the vision to both of them to say, this is what you really want, right? And they would say yes. And that was kind of where I could bring that together. And so, again, very fortunate over time. I had some great coaches. Learned a lot about how everything fit together and how it all worked. But over time, I started to figure out things. I would tinker a lot too. We had a quick little story. But we were at Legal’s.

 

And every Friday, the point of sale at 12 would go down. And all the printers would stop working. And we couldn’t figure it out. I called electricians. I called network people in. I had sniffers on the network. We were watching everything as we go through. And we couldn’t figure it out for about three weeks. So here I’m thinking I’m going to get fired because I can’t figure this out, right? And obviously, we’re talking apart. We’re saying, hey, there’s a really big problem here. We’ve got to figure this out. So come to find out. I’m watching. And I’m doing a normal check on Friday right before this normally happens. And a cook takes the make line at the pantry station and pulls it back. And a wire is stripped. And it just sparks. The whole line goes down. And I go, what are you doing? He’s like, I plug in my cell phone. When do you work? When do you work? Every Friday. OK, so I said, don’t ever do that again. I took the cord. I threw it on the CFO’s desk. I reported him at the time. And I said, here’s your problem. So we fixed it.

So just like things like that, through experience, you kind of learn like, oh, a spark like that from a cord could wipe out the line. So it was really interesting. So we learned, again, just a lot of hands-on experience.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

It’s funny. I have a ton of stories like that on the other side where restaurant called our support and said, OK, world is on fire. Nothing is working. Guys are like, not able to really troubleshoot. And I mean, we have had our own share of just the cable. Once, I remember, a restaurant owner called. And he was like shouting on top of his voice. And he was like, this is not working. And our poor support guy was saying, hey, can I take another mode? Can you just help me at least understand the problem? He said, you’re not understanding. This damn machine doesn’t switch on. And this guy reached there in three hours. He traveled. Because this operator was not listening. He was like, I want somebody here right now. I was like, OK. And this guy went in. And after literally 30 seconds of reaching, he messaged me fixed. So I called him. I said, what did you do? He said, you won’t believe. Everything else was on. Monitor’s cable was unplugged. So the guy was not able to see things. And that’s why he refused to give us a remote system or do anything on the system. So yeah.

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah, I think everyone has those stories, right? You know, where it’s something simple, right? And it’s hard. It’s balanced. Because when you’re talking to people on the phone and giving support, you never want to be accusatory, right? You never know, right? It could be. Sometimes there are legitimate problems. Sometimes you can’t understand them. You got to see them for yourself. But always giving that level of support is super important. And I’ve always told my team. Remind yourself, you work for them, not the other way around, right? We’re in service of them because they make the money in the store, right? So we’ve got to make sure that they’re up, that they have, you know, all the white glove experience they can.

We try to do everything we can to make sure that they feel like we’re there for them. And then when you have that buy-in and you’ve given that good experience, they pass it on to the guests, right? Because, oh, my day is a lot better because you fixed it. Thank you. And now I’m going to show that appreciation to other people. So it’s really, you know, transient, you know, in that way. And so it’s so important. You remind yourself again, we’re a hospitality business and it’s all about people, right? That’s what it comes down to.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

When did this translate to, you know, just, you know, from a guy who’s tinkering with the tech systems and, you know, managing systems to actually taking a role as tech first?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

So we got through, you know, we got through the training and rolled out the point of sale system. I was offered a position as a systems manager at that time. And then a couple of years later, I was a director overseeing, you know, most of the department. And then my former boss, he left for another opportunity. And so I was put in charge and did so for several years. I really learned a lot about it. And it was an amazing journey. And then from there, Au bon pain, which was originally started byRon Shaich, who created Panera, was looking for someone to roll out their next generation point of sale. And they’re right down the street. Literally, I could walk from Wiggles to Au bon pain. And I said, you know what? I’ve done everything I can here. Felt like I learned so much. Let’s do more. Let’s learn more.

Let’s figure something out. Let’s do something else. And so we decided to, so I went over there. I was hired as a director of systems at Au bon pain. And we rolled out their next gen point of sale system, which was XP and Iris product. And we had great success there, too, as well. And kind of upgraded their systems. And there was a different set of challenges, different things. You know, capturing data. They have, at Au bon pain, it was very open, more like a European market where you go in and you bring stuff to the cashier and you pay for it after you’ve ordered it. So people were making orders, helping out their friends, throwing a little extra bacon or whatever else. So we’re like, how do we capture that first?

And then have it brought to the register. And funny story, at Brigham Women’s Hospital, which is one of the first sites we installed the system, you know, sometimes, I’m not going to be accusatory, but someone might have had or smoked a little something and was feeling pretty good. And they ordered this sandwich with triple the meat and all this other stuff. And they rang up a $30 sandwich, right? Because we scanned it with barcodes on the front counter after they made the sandwich with all that capture. So just a different type of experience. And, you know, capturing, you know, did we put cream cheese on that bagel? You know, and that was a great learning experience too. Really helped me see things in a different light too.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

So did you capture the order at the source and then they take the barcode to the cash counter?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah, we put a barcode sticky label on the sandwich and then they bring it up front and they pay for it that way. So that way we were capturing all the things we were, you know, missing. We also use biometrics too. So that was interesting. So we learned all about biometrics and about, you know, people clocking in. You can’t fake a punch. You can’t fake a thumbprint. So, you know, improved labor and then it cut down on our comps because you couldn’t share the number, right? With a staff member. And you couldn’t buddy punch if someone was running late. Your friend, hey, can you punch me in early? Because, you know, I’m on my way. So just really kind of interesting to learn all about that next gen tech and how that would work. And so over time, again, getting more exposure to more things, just such a great learning opportunity.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

You know, Au bon pain was the first chain restaurant brand that we onboarded in India back in 2016.

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Oh, yeah.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Yeah. So there used to be, I think, a little over 40 Au bon pain in India.

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah, Au bon pain was very popular in India. And I think a lot of students would come over and experience Au bon pain in Harvard, in Cambridge. And I think that they love the brand and they would tell family members to check it out. And I think that’s awesome about that franchise.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Yeah, the group that used to own it, I think the group went down and then they sold it to somebody else and then they did a bad job, right? So I think Au bon pain was in India up until 2019. But they were the first chain like of 40 stores that we onboarded as Restroworks.

 

Chris Incorvati:

That’s really cool.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Then what after Au bon pain? 

 

Chris Incorvati: 

So after Au bon pain, you know, Ron Shaich came back and he actually ended up after originally selling Au bon pain to start Panera before he retired in 2017. He bought Au bon pain back and brought it into the Panera fold. And so, you know, at that time I said, okay, now what’s my next journey, right? So I sat down with the CEO at the time, John Meister. And I said, hey, how can I help? What can we do? I’d love to learn more, much bigger company, right? I dealt with some smaller groups, you know, legals being very small, Au bon pain moderate size.

Now here’s a large company with a huge IT group, almost 500 people, right? Built their own custom point of sale system, all their own architecture, all their own software developers, a massive undertaking, right? A lot of work. But, you know, obviously, you know, Panera systems were really good. And so they’re building out their own front counter system. They hadn’t completed it quite yet, but they’re working towards it. And so John says, hey, your first job here would be great. If you could evaluate the system, we might look to sell it beyond Panera as a point of sale company. Could you tell us what you think?

So I, with help of some consultants, I came in and we did a full blown evaluation of the product. Again, every kind of feature, how everything worked, you know, what it would do versus, you know, the current incumbent and how things would work out. So again, great learning experience. I get more hands on. 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

What year was this? 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

2017, 2016, 2017, went around then. And so really kind of just trying to understand how that would all work. And then, you know, we ended up saying it was a great system for Panera, but really was gonna be a challenge to sell it because everything was done in, you know, you know, to benefit Panera and their employees. And I think it worked out and they ended up rolling that out a few years later. So every store in the company had its own custom proprietary system they have today.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Panera continues to have their own system, right?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Yeah

 

Ashish Tulsian:

And what was the next role? 

 

Chris Incorvati:

So after that, he asked me to oversee the software delivery team and the marketplace application they used for a third-party delivery. And I kind of worked with those teams for about two years, learning, you know, all the different pieces and working with the software development team that delivered, you know, did our delivery software because we had an in-house delivery at the time. We had our own drivers. They’ve since pivoted. They use White Label and usually use DoorDash, I think, for their online delivery. But it was, again, now I’m working with software developers on a different scale, learning their project management practice and change management, how they’re doing things, how they’re interacting, and how all the teams fit together and understanding how to manage that group, right? Very different, right? And a lot less hands-on. So how do I have to shift and manage, you know, from being in that, you know, I can take it and fix it myself to I’ve got to let these people do it and coaching guide them and then help them when they need help. How do I be a servient leader and provide them the best support I can? So, you know, from there, you know, we had some changes and John said, hey, would you be willing to take on the help desk group?

And I said, okay, it’s a little different. I could do support too, but that would be great. And then I get even more experience on that side. And I did that for about six months. And he says to me, hey, Chris, you’re doing a great job. You know, I’m going to give an opportunity to become a VP, but we also want you to oversee the guest care team. And I’m like, the guest care team, that’s not IT, that’s, you know, operations or marketing, right? He says, but it fits, right? You handle support, you’re handling all customer interaction, and then you’ll be able to handle our customer interaction, which is our internal managers in the stores.

So there’s like kind of a little bit of, you know, similarity there. And I said, okay. So again, I got our four-way into more experience in the restaurants. And my background with operations having been in, you know, restaurants almost 30 years at that point, I said, okay, I can do this. And I’ve done guest support just as a manager. So now I’ve got to learn that value. So I worked with the support teams. We built out an amazing team. I think we had best in class, you know, support at the time. I felt like they really killed it. They did a great job. And we believed in, you know, unreasonable hospitality. I love that book that Will Gudera recently wrote a couple of years ago, and really preached that mantra, like, you know, let nothing stand in your way and try to do above and beyond. Let’s give that care. And we took that same mantra for the guest care team, for, you know, customer service.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

But what is your role in that guest care team? Like, what is it that you were helping them with?

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Everything from systems to analysis to helping them to make sure that the guests were taken care of. If they called the complaint, how do we make them whole? How do we interact with our teams? So also from the marketing perspective or our e-commerce team and say, hey, this product might not be working the way we intended it to. Maybe we should shift and look at how we can integrate. Or, you know, maybe there’s a problem with promotion for a campaign. And we say, hey, you know, this isn’t, this promotion isn’t working right. We can see there’s a problem. Can you help us with that? So I would be, you know, one of those people that might try to, you know, show them that there’s another way to do things where I might try to, you know, reduce the amount of friction that was happening in the stores. We did SIP. We actually, we stuck, kind of set up a team called the friction team. And what their job? 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

A friction team. 

 

Chris Incorvati: 

The friction team, right? Okay. And so anytime there was software or problems that we identified that were unique or things that, you know, created challenges for either internal or external teams being the guest, we would, you know, keep a record of that, report on it and work off it as a kind of change management protocol. And it was really successful. It brought teams together. We would go through a list of all the issues from the days prior, all the tickets that were going on. And it just, it was an accountability piece we hadn’t had.

So it was really great. So Helpdesk didn’t have to worry about what they were working on, just support, which is what they needed to do. Guest care team could work on what they needed to. And the friction team would handle all the kind of anomalies that were happening, right? And try to resolve those and bring attention.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

And when you say support helpdesk team, it was the IT helpdesk for restaurants.

 

Chris Incorvati: 

Correct. Yep. So they would support all the systems, all the payment devices, all the drive-through, everything that was going on in the store. All the four walls for the most part.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

And, you know, Chris, this is really fascinating. And a couple of questions on this. There’s a lot of tech that is being thrown at restaurants today, you know, of all types and kinds. And, you know, and some of them is really good tech. It’s worth looking at as well. As a CTO today, what is your, how are you prioritizing? What are you looking at? How are you prioritizing? What is it that you want?

And, you know, and one question, which is not only my curiosity, I think I also want to know what is the method to the madness, which is there are certain tech pieces that might be stable in, you know, what you’re doing right now. And you may want to believe that, okay, the business does not need this. I don’t need to spend my time on this. How are you looking at tech in those areas, the new players or the new products that come your way? Do you evaluate? Do you not? If you evaluate, what do you do about them? What’s the method?

 

Chris Incorvati:

Sure. So let’s start with the first part, which is like, what are we looking at right now? And how do we kind of, you know, decide what’s best right now for, you know, from my current company, Jacks, which is an amazing, you know, restaurant in the South. You know, we’re a quick service restaurant group. We’re serving burgers, chicken fingers, biscuits, great breakfast and milkshakes. And so it’s simplifying. They have a huge drive-through, right? So for them, it’s drive-through business. It’s speed. It’s making sure that that is seamless as we can, right? So ordering, you know, the cashier station, that drive-through station has to be quick. The KDS has to be readable. Things have to be great.

At Jacks, when I walked in, one of the first things I noticed was that they had lines, right? They had lines that you’d walk in and people would be backed up because again, the focus has always been on drive-through.

And while the team does a really good job there, you know, I said to myself, you know, coming from Panera where we had kiosks, right? It makes sense to put a kiosk in. So we’re looking at kiosk technology to try to put in there that would help us to improve the guest experience again, you know, and take that friction away from, you know, the cashier having to worry about balance of putting orders together and then bringing someone up and then going back and forth.

So that’s kind of what we’re looking at for, you know, right now today. And that’s how I’m evaluating the needs of the brand, what they kind of need first and foremost, making it simple.

And then from new things, right, evaluating how do we do that. So AI is going to be a talk conversation. Everyone’s going to bring it up. I’m sure it was probably on your list of things to discuss today, but of course we’re looking at it. You can’t not, right? It’s in our everyday lives now, whether it’s on your smartphone or whether it’s, you know, an interaction you have on a website.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Isn’t it being forced, especially in the restaurant space?

 

Chris Incorvati:

It is, but no one has had the magic sauce yet, you know, and again at Panera, something else I was able to do, you know, I was overseeing the innovation team at Panera too, which was amazing experience too. And we were trying the new things, right?

So we rolled out, you know, open city AI now called Tory, where they put it in stores and we’re able to evaluate that system. And the one thing we learned is it’s not necessarily a labor saver, but what it does is it improves your order accuracy and it improves your check average because it’s not afraid to upsell, right? It’s going to offer a cookie every time if you want it to, or it’s going to try to offer that new thing. So, you know, really an opportunity there that I think hasn’t been unlocked yet. And then here’s the other thing too, you know, restaurants don’t answer their phones, there’s staffing shortages right now, right? So why not have the system or AI answer the call and place the order for the guest, right? And if you can do that, and people say all the time, I hear all the time, oh, people don’t call the store to place orders. They don’t call the place orders because no one answers the phone. You have someone answer the phone, it’ll take care of that. So, and I think it can grow sales. So I think it’s really just this great opportunity that is an unlock. But I think with AI in particular, it’s, you’ve got to look at the encompassing vision of AI. It’s got to be the voice of the brands, right? And how do you, you know, so if a customer interacts with it, it should be the same in theory, like sound the same, look the same. So it’s familiar.

And there’s so much you can do, you know, right now from, and I’ve talked to a bunch of groups and companies about how do we evaluate that? What do we, what do we look for? And I’ve always said, just don’t think about one thing. Don’t settle on one area. It’s going to be, you’ve got to think broader. You can focus on one to start. And for me at Jacks, so Jacks is probably, you know, when we got there, it’s probably about a three on technology-wise. And we want to get to a seven, we kind of evolve it with a new point of sale rolling out and some of the things we’re doing. I never want to be on the bleeding edge again, like I was at Vigo’s. I mean, it was a great experience, but I’ve definitely aged. I aged in those years when I was there. 

 

Ashish Tulsian: 

Take it easy. 

 

Chris Incorvati:

It was a little bit. No, I mean, it’s always fun. The new stuff’s always fun. Right. But it, it, it, it’s hard to measure. You have to be very careful. You have to have great metrics. You have to make sure that you’re evaluating for ROI before you even look at the product and you’ve got to make sure that you’re confident that it’s going to work. Right. You’ve got to do great QA work. You’ve got to make sure that you’re evaluating every possible scenario of how things are going to, are going to be handled. And you know, sometimes we, we miss light of that. We’re so such in a rush to get things out the door and get it in. We lose track of why we did it in the first place. Right. So, you know, I see a lot of companies out there right now. I’m not trying to be critical of any groups, but they say, Hey, you’re going to save all this labor with AI. I’m like, how? If you’re doing a drive-thru, you still need someone to take the payment.

You still need someone to bag the food. It might make you a little more efficient, but the real ROI is in the upsell and the in, in how you present, you know, other items to the guests and the order accuracy. Right. So in general, I know it’s a long-winded answer, but I think when you look at new technology, you just got to be very cautious. You should always look for the new thing, right? Because if you don’t, you’re going to fall behind. And we were guilty of this at Panera too, because with our point of sale system, we built this system that was great for Panera and it was working great. There was no need to really evolve. Even though we did, we made a lot of investment.

We did a lot of great things. But you weren’t comparing it to other products, right. That might have great features that you introduce, but it was because you didn’t need them. Right. But so there was, there was things that I think you always have to innovate. You always have to look forward. You always have to kind of keep your eye on what’s going on out there. It’s, it’s been an interesting journey. And I think, you know, as we go through the next year, I think we’re going to see someone, you know, really come out and prove that AI can work.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

I think you’re, you made the, you made a great point. And I think I, you know, as a technology company, we believe in that because a lot of our customers and prospects have asked us, what’s your AI strategy? And I’ve always been telling them that, you know, you tell me what is it that you want and you believe AI can solve for your business and we’ll give you a solution. Though we are not a services shop. But my problem is that, you know, I can do a lot with AI theoretically and practically as well. Your business won’t be able to consume it because your business also has to be ready for that. And your business is not only you and your people, it’s also your customers. So, so it’s, you know, in totality, if they’re not able to consume a certain use case. So, so I think I agree with the point that it’s not really about, you know, cutting the labor costs down. It can be about bringing the top line up, maybe the check size up, maybe, you know, just get things done more efficiently, faster and so on.

 

Chris Incorvati:

Yeah. There’s some, there’s some great unlocks and it will do, it will be in the industry. It’ll be a big part of it in the future. And it’s just understanding how it’ll be used and what it’ll be done for. And I think people come up with great use cases we haven’t thought of, you know, maybe, you know, I read, I read someone posted this week online and LinkedIn about an article about, you know, maybe it replaces marketplaces, right? That the AI makes the decision that drives where the order comes from. So there’s a lot of things I think that will help kind of improve over time and make restaurants more efficient for sure.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

How, you know, how are you as a leader, Chris? Who are you as a leader?

 

Chris Incorvati:

I try to be a servant leader. I try to be supportive of my team. I like to think they like to work for me, but you never know. But no, I think, I think the most important thing for me is to make sure they understand my vision and then, you know, the brand’s vision and what we’re trying to do and approach it with, you know, accountability with a smile. I always say you have to be accountable, right? But you don’t have to do it in a way that’s mean. You can be, you can be approachable and explain what you’re looking for and then help people to coach them to get where they are. You know, I was very prideful at Panera. I had, you know, several people that got promoted into positions off of my different teams over that time because of the great people that I work with. It wasn’t me that did that. It was the people that work with me that helped to coach and guide. But we all have that vision, right? And that path for everyone. And the people that are really vested, they’ll go through a wall for you if they believe in what you’re trying to do. And so it’s important to me that everyone feels supported. So I’m a supportive leader that cares. And I’m someone that wants to make a difference. And I’m in this business because it’s not a job. It’s my life. This is what I love to do.

And I’ve been doing it for 30 years and it’s exciting and it’s challenging and I’m chief firefighter and I’ll put on that hat and I’ll help when I can. But I’m also a partner and I’m someone that wants to evolve the business and learn more. I’m always a constant learner. You know, I can never learn enough. And obviously I started from a disadvantage, right? From where I’m from, I didn’t, I didn’t have the background as some of the people in the industry. And so to be here where I am today, I’m extremely fortunate. I love my job.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

But do you think that was also your advantage? The fact that you were not from the tech side, you know, you could actually do stuff at legal or take up stuff at legal, which, you know, the seasoned players will say, no, too risky.

 

Chris Incorvati:

Maybe. I think, I think, yeah, there’s, there’s some of that. And I think, I think a little bit differently than a technologist, right? I think more like an operator sometimes, because I’m still that operator at heart. So I see things from both sides. I think it does give me a little bit of a leg up in some cases. I also know how to push people a little bit differently. I can, I think I can communicate with people in a way that, that helps them bring out the best in them. And that’s, what’s really important. I like to think that, you know, our teams have been efficient because we understand each other. Right. And again, I think it’s all about if, if you are good to your people, right. And, and you make sure that they feel like they’re part of something and there’s a development path for them, right. It’s important to lay out, you know, the development path of these individuals. And not everyone has that dream.

Some people are very comfortable in the role they’re in. Right. But if they want to grow, show them how to get there and really help them. Because if I can do it right from where I came from, then anyone can do, you know, anything. So it’s been a, it’s been an amazing journey.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

What’s happening on the personal side? 

 

Chris Incorvati:

Personally, I’m getting married in May. 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

So congratulations. 

 

Chris Incorvati:

Thank you. Yeah. I’m very excited. So, and you know, I’ve been commuting between Birmingham and St. Louis recently, so it’s been a lot, but it’s been fun and challenging at the same time. So lots of stuff going on right now.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Are you, are you, is that the reason why you’re saying, you know, you’re not experimenting with bleeding edge tech now?

 

Chris Incorvati:

No, I think, you know, I think I’m not afraid to do it. I’m not afraid to do it. I think, you know, I would love to take on a challenge if it was the right type of challenge.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Right. Just kidding. 

 

Chris Incorvati:

No, but you learn like craziest thing, but like, I didn’t know that wifi and water have the same signal. So when we were on the waterfront, right, and using handhelds, we had to adjust the APS so that they wouldn’t interact with the water so that the handhelds would work. I mean, there’s so many things like you discover when you do those things. So it’s just amazing.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

What is one, you know, struggle or failure during the career, you know, which helped you grow as well, which, which you look back and see, okay, that struggle or that failure, you know, allowed me to bloom into something else.

 

Chris Incorvati:

I was a little mean. I think when I first started, I would, I would micromanage people. And I felt like I had to be all over everything. I had to do it myself because I could do it faster and better. I thought, and it was a learning experience. It was humbling. And I think that when I took a step back and said, okay, if you’re going to manage this way, you’re going to burn out. You’re going to upset everyone that you work with and you’re never going to, you know, evolve in the believer you want to be. And so I said, how do I coach people and take a step back, but be there for them when you, when they need your help and make it so you’re approachable. So those people can help you. And I, I did have, you know, I had a little bit of a tough time when I started my career, especially when I transitioned to legals, right. I went from a role that in restaurants, we’re moving fast, a hundred miles an hour. And we’re yelling in the kitchen, not to be angry, but because we need food, we got to get out to a table and we got to get it fast. And we know we’re worried about stuff. And so then you go into this corporate world and you’re trying to transition and you’re also trying to learn a new balance, a new way to manage people. And so that was a, that was a big adjustment. But I think, you know, it was such a great learning opportunity for me and it changed who I am as a person.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

You know, I hear a lot of, you know, I mean, it’s interesting that you said that you were mean or you, you know, you were, you were not, not great with people when you started, because I hear a lot of empathy, you know, in your voice, you know, for the people you work with or, you know, people you are impacting with your work. When did that, what was that transition like? Do you, do you see when, do you know when it happened?

 

Chris Incorvati:

Yeah, I think, I think it was when I was at Legalz at the, at, you know, towards the middle of my IT career there. And I started to understand that we were doing so much again, you know, bleeding, cutting edge. And we had talented people. I mean, you have seven people on that team doing all these things, a thousand wireless devices in 34 stores up and down the East coast. Right. And you’re handling all of that support. We didn’t have field techs. We didn’t, you know, we had third-party advanced exchange, but we’re doing a lot of help desk work. We’re doing a lot of that ourselves. So, you know, I felt pressure to do it, you know, and then when I said, all right, how do we get better at this ourselves? You know, so we, we experimented, we, we, you know, we put up a, you know, homegrown ticket system and we started to just adjust how we handle things and said, okay, everyone’s got a little bit of responsibility and take a step back and, and how can I help, but not have to be overseeing everything. And at that moment, people started to enjoy the job a little more.

I’m like, oh, maybe this is what we should have been doing all along. And then I realized that when, you know, they were happy, you know, that they’re more productive and it made life easier for everyone. And I, and I, I’ve learned that being a good coach is important and it, it, it motivates people, right. And being there to, to help guide a path and just take the burden of responsibility off them from a, I don’t know what to do and say, take this path and we’ll figure it out together. And it’s okay to fail. And I also, that’s, and that’s one of the biggest lessons too. You’re going to fail at some point in your career, right? And so, you know, failure is okay. You learn from those mistakes. And if anything, I could tell this next generation of leaders it’s, that’s coming up, especially in the IT group or restaurants it’s, don’t be afraid to fail the first time. And if you do learn from that mistake and use it as a motivation for the future, you know, I had a poster of Michael Jordan on my wall when I was a kid and he said he missed so many thousands of shots, you know, but look at what he did in his career. Right. But he learned from those mistakes and got better. And so, you know, you learn from your mistakes and you, you make sure you don’t make them again. That’s all.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

What pisses you off today? 

 

Chris Incorvati:

What, what makes me upset? What, what pissed me off? I think, you know, when we just don’t do things right or mistakes that are made because we could have done it and we rushed, or we, it’s a simple mistake. Or if I miss something, I’m harder on myself than anyone. And I feel bad, you know, if, if, if I could have prevented something by coaching, right. Or by saying something, Hey, just, let’s just check this. Right. And let’s make sure we got it right. And if I’ve, if I’ve missed that and I let down the team that’s on me. And so, you know, I’ve done that before. I think there are times, you know, no one’s perfect. Right. And I think that when I also, I also get upset when, you know, I talked to a vendor and this happens on occasion, I’m sure you’ve been there. And I say, Hey, we checked to make sure this is going to work. And they say, Oh yeah, it’s perfect. Okay. Are you sure? Yeah. It’ll work. And then you turn it on. It doesn’t work. Right.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

We are not, we are not.

 

Chris Incorvati:

But it, but it happens. Right. And it’s, and you know, it’s going to happen and it’s, it’s okay.

 

But I think, you know, that type, that will piss me off. Yeah. I think that those are the things that, you know, just, just, you know, not being ready or prepared. And I think, you know, we can always do a better job of being prepared.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

So yeah. Jacks are, is that 200 locations?

 

Chris Incorvati:

We’re we’re about 270. We’ll probably get to close to 300 by the end of the year. 

 

Ashish Tulsian:

And is this all like, you know, company owned franchise?

 

Chris Incorvati:

Yeah. A hundred percent company owned all in the South. So we’re in Alabama, Tennessee, Georgia, and Mississippi.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Super. So, so a lot of control, you know, over what is it that you can do with them?

 

Chris Incorvati:

Yeah, no, it’s great. Yeah. We have, we have a lot of control to implement the systems we need across the board. So.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

Yeah. I mean, I, I, I, I see the struggle, you know, the tech leaders have had, have, it’s ongoing for ages is when a large part of the estate is franchisee. And, you know, it’s one thing that you’re innovating and bringing new tech. It’s altogether a different thing to then sell it to them and make sure that they adopt. Right.

 

Chris Incorvati:

So yeah, absolutely. Like Panera, we had a great group of franchisees and, you know, we would talk to them about the challenges. I think the important thing was just being open and honest. Right. If you had a situation, never, never hide anything. That was the, that was the big thing, right. It was always come up front and just say, Hey, listen, we’re having a problem. Here’s what it is. They’d appreciate the honesty. Right. And then we’d say, here’s the idea to try to get it fixed. We’re going to do everything we can.

And, and, you know, we’ll make up for it somehow, however we can. And we had some challenges, you know, but we always, we always figured it out in the end. And I think it’s important for transparency. Right. And, and it’s hard to, you know, when you look at new technology, there’s gotta be an ROI. There’s gotta be a return on investment because to just, you know, ask a franchisee to cough up all this money to implement a new system that they don’t, you know, they’re saying, Hey, I’m profitable. Why do I need to do this? You’ve got to really explain it. You’ve got to be very clear in your expectations and what it’s going to do for them and how it’s going to help their business. So I think, again, everything comes down to communication.

 

Ashish Tulsian:

So great. Chris, this was a great conversation. I, you know, thank you. Thank you for coming over and thank you for doing this.

 

Chris Incorvati:

No, thank you for having me. This has been fun. So I’ll see you.