Andy Holman

When my mother, I think, a little frustrated with my unstructured approach, sent me an application or clipping from a paper saying that this company, Pizza Hut, was looking for management trainees. Younger generations Nowadays they get frustrated and they leave and you’re left with people who aren’t learning, who aren’t progressing. Interaction management, giving feedback, receiving feedback, training, how to set up a training system, how to recruit, how to handle customer conflicts. These are sort of soft skills which over the years really help you I think. And train them as well, because there’s a belief that training can happen in just reading or viewing video. You know, we all know that’s not really the case. I wouldn’t want a heart transplant done by somebody who’d watched a video.

Ashish Tulsian

I think customer interaction or public interaction is something that cannot be taught in the classroom. You can learn tips and tricks.

Andy Holman

I joined, as I say, as a crew member, went through the management training was in the north of England in the restaurant business, came down to the south, worked in London, progressed from manager to training manager to an area manager to a regional manager. I worked within the restaurant business at that point when delivery was starting to become a thing in the late eighties with the delivery business that I worked in concessions.

Ashish Tulsian

Hi, welcome to Restrocast. Today, my guest is Andy Holman, founder and CEO of Advance Restaurant Consultants. This was a great conversation because this was four decades of Andy’s journey rolled into an hour. Andy’s  journey of four decades spans across not more than three job roles wherein he spent two and a half decades alone with Pizza Hut and another decade with a Southeast Asian major. In his last stint, Andy was CEO of one of the most loved restaurant concept brand in UAE. For me, apart from hospitality and restaurants, this podcast was a great lesson in management. It certainly is going to make me become a better CEO. I enjoyed this conversation. I’m sure you will. Welcome to Restrocast. Andy, welcome to Restrocast.

Andy Holman

Thank you for having me.

Ashish Tulsian

Thank you for agreeing to do this. Being an illustrious career, I think when I was reading, you know, your your experiences, your entire profile, there was a point I was like, wow, during the course of this conversation, I would want to get details of every milestone in life, but I would want to start from when it all started. Tell me something about the early years.

Andy Holman

Oh, well, I guess the one of the few things that, you know, have no control of in your life is where you’re born. I was actually born in Hong Kong. My father was a serving officer within the British military in the early sixties. Um, and happened to be he was a chaplain. Uh, so he was serving in Hong Kong. And I came. So I guess my early sort of years were, um, based in Far East Asia, between Hong Kong. We then moved to Singapore, spent a lot of time in Malaysia as well before coming back into the UK early years, five, six years old. Um, and subsequently as my father was moved there.

Ashish Tulsian

By five or six years, you were back in the UK?

Andy Holman

Yeah. Oh, so the military typically sort of cycles the postings.

Ashish Tulsian

Do you like, until five or six years, do you have memories of?

Andy Holman

Not of Hong Kong. I think we left that when I was about seven or eight months. So I think but certainly of of Singapore where what is now Sentosa Island used to be the the base from which we we live people who know it is the black and black the black and white Houses on Sentosa. We used to live in one of those. And I recall certainly as a youngster taking the ferry every morning to go to the infant school and and kind of all of the excitement that was in and around Singapore Harbor or Pulau Brani, Blakang Mati, those sort of areas.

Ashish Tulsian

These are these are still sixties, right?

Andy Holman

This is yeah, Yeah, it sixties um, towards that late sixties. And the same in Malaysia. We had some time in Solomon which is, you know, kind of so I recall flashes of that, not as detailed memories as, as, as you can appreciate. And then as we cycled back through the UK and then later we did tours in Germany and Belgium and other sort of European places.

Andy Holman

Um, so that was my early sort of recollections, meaning I guess the take out being that, you know, being thrust into different cultures. I didn’t think of it being thrust in. I was already there. Right. So UK was.

Ashish Tulsian

That, that was, that is how that was a natural life for you.

Andy Holman

Yes, an exciting and fun. And you know, there was a demystified the whole point of travel or the whole kind of, uh, so, so I enjoyed early years from the age of eight was sent to boarding school, which was very typical of, of military families. So again, the travel bug and moving and being engaged at the end of every term, traveling to wherever my parents lived at that point, I kind of, I guess, put in an early wanderlust, if you like. Um, and as well allowed me to kind of interact with every type of person, nationality possibly as well with my father being in the role he was of, of uh, spiritual advisor to many people. That was an element of, of kind of picking up at the family dinner table, you know, and being mindful of other people’s concerns and considerations. So I would like to say I had a very privileged and very comfortable childhood moving around. Um, I wasn’t necessarily the best student. Despite being sent to some very nice schools, I felt that my formal education probably was under, uh, underused. Um, so I, eventually I got thrown out of school the age of 17, not for doing anything particularly bad, but not doing anything particularly well. And my journey into catering came as a consequence of that, meaning that I, my father was quite upset. He wouldn’t for a period felt it best that if I was so clever, I should figure out how to live. So I went actually to stay with my older sister. Thank God for older sisters who took me under her house for a period, but said, Look, you know, you going to have to pay your way. So I kind of jumped into the early part of just working from washing plates to cleaning windows to doing all the range of different jobs until my father decided that, yes, I probably was worth having at home for a period. Um, and then despite trying to go through a college environment for about a year, I realized that in fact I was, as a student, not cut out. But I was working part time at that stage and realized that at the end of every weekend I came back to college, I had significant amount more funds in my pocket because I’d been working than my my friends did, which kind of opened up the, uh, the attractions of having lunch breaks and long lunch breaks and staying in the pub. And then I realized pretty quickly that this is, you know, working was a lot more fun than than studying.

Ashish Tulsian

Wow. What are you working like? You’re doing part time? You said, in the catering business?

Andy Holman

Yeah, I kind of essentially I’d gone through a number of different jobs. Um, my first ever job actually was a window cleaner for the Ramana Cleaning Company, and I learned pretty quickly that that’s a hard job. I mean, it’s the UK is not a kind environment to go off and clean windows at any point, but in the winter it was, it was hard. So I realized after about a couple of weeks in that from a 4:00, an early morning start, we would go and do what we had to do drive around clean, big corporate buildings. And then around about 8:30 a.m., we would return back to the depot area via always a cafe or a roadside place to get coffee and tea and breakfast. And it was on the second or third time we were doing this, I realized that coming in to a warm environment, sitting down, spending essentially 50% of my daily salary that I’d just spent many hours working for in the cold. And and I saw the guy behind the cook line was warm was being paid to do this and be fed for free and I said this this is an aha moment. So I’d do that. So that’s essentially my journey into kind of understanding the hospitality industry. So yeah, I spent a few years in and around an unstructured set of roles, some of which were kind of residential based, some of which were just bars, clubs and did whatever I could to kind of, you know, prove people that I was worth having around, learned as much as I could, whether it was some cooking skills, whether it was some service skills, wine skills, stage management, in one of the places I worked.

Ashish Tulsian

So all of it was purely on the job. No formal training?

Andy Holman

Up until that point. Yeah, nothing at all was was formal, Whatever training systems, the new place that I went to work at had. But I my formal training as such came in early eighties, about ‘83 when my mother, I think a little frustrated with my unstructured approach, sent me an application or a clipping from a paper saying that this company called Pizza Hut was looking for management trainees as they kind of arrived in the UK in the early eighties. They not being particularly successful, had a small footprint in London and had just signed a big joint venture deal with with a sizable company in the UK and started the recruitment drive for formal training of management. So I applied and although it was first rejected, I finally kind of kept at it and, and I joined Pizza Hut in 1983 as a, as a crew member in the newly opened York, which is essentially my, my hometown in the UK. The Pizza Hut up there and fairly quickly kind of made it clear that I was interested to become a little bit more permanent fixture and the rest, as they say, is history. I mean, the training systems that early days, the what is now Yum. But in those days was just Pizza Hut or PepsiCo. Restaurants, what they had was extraordinary. It really required some dedication. I mean, the training, which was permanent, ongoing, huge manuals that you had to kind of complete and get signed off. And they held every, once you qualified, a residential course for one week at a time in London that you had to go down and attend. You had to pass a kind of a qualification test. And these residential courses, there were two separate ones. One was pure technical skills. Do you know how to make pizzas? Do you know how to clean a kitchen, you know, all, all of the basics, but very, very thorough as well as hard skills on. Can you open up an oven, strip it down, clean it, can you make a fridge work if it breaks down? I mean, a lot of technical.

Ashish Tulsian

And these were like, like proper classroom programs?

Andy Holman

Absolutely. It was a residential. We went down every week and I mean, the cost in those days I’m sure was huge. But the legacy that it left you with was extraordinary. I mean, majority of the expansion of the brand at that time was fairly remote places. And so as a manager, when you finally got promoted, you were very much a single unit business owner and you had accountability for everything in your business, meaning it had to be maintained. So sometimes you couldn’t rely on a kind of a you know.

Ashish Tulsian

Actually, I mean, what you’re saying is, is amazing because I often I don’t know if I should say wonder, are like just marvel at the like the depth of the institution. You know, these guys are built like Yums, Yums of the world. You know, Yum definitely being amongst equals, the kind of career sold to the people. The career development that they did. And I mean, it’s just amazing. And what goes behind the scene and goes at the back is like way too deep and you know high investment than what meets the eye.

Andy Holman

Well I think I mean it was of its time I think there were to my mind looking back it was a very meritocratic system and it was very equitable. Right. There wasn’t an automatic advantage to having a degree at that point because they essentially wanted people who were committed to making the store run. And the the simple adage, the harder you work, the luckier you got and the more senior you got and the more perks you got. And that very much sort of resonated with myself. I loved the, you know, the the fact that it was a relatively in the UK in the mid-eighties, there wasn’t a lot of formal catering. It wasn’t the culinary hotspot that it is nowadays, but it was very well respected. And the opportunities that were provided for somebody who were prepared to take a little initiative really, you know, kind of work were amazing. I mean, at the age of 20, I was fairly quickly a manager of a restaurant. It was even in those days taking £1,000,000 a year. And that’s that was a sizable business. I mean, it’s a sizable business today as well, but completely responsible at all elements for that. So it was a lot of responsibility, but nevertheless set up that kind of deep appreciation for systems and processes. And the quicker you can bring enthusiastic people on board and help them learn the easier your job becomes, right? I mean, I think over the years people have maybe taken a slightly different, think differently about training. There are some cultures that don’t necessarily welcome it as as as some individuals who’ve been in the system a long time who are nervous bringing in young talent and allowing it to flourish because it you know, they fear it, you know, maybe weakens their situation. None of that existed in those days. I mean, we were sort of just.

Ashish Tulsian

You think today there are certain cultures who don’t like training?

Andy Holman

I think that there are some company systems where legacy individuals who’ve arrived at a point where they feel threatened, when new people come along. And I think although I haven’t been within the young system for time, unless you’ve got a really organized, methodical system for allowing people to have an opportunity to shine and to be kind of recognized along the way, the danger is that they get frustrated, particularly the younger generations nowadays. They get frustrated and they leave. And you’re left with people who aren’t learning, who aren’t progressing. And that, I think, is there’s an element of that in many of not just food and beverage in many industries, I think. So I guess my point is that I’ve always been an advocate for providing really solid training, and the evidence was very clear. The average lifespan of a manager when I was in the early point of my career, five, six, seven years. And that level of competency pays dividends in the stores, profitability as well as, you know, customer retentions. Now it was of its time and there are clearly many different sort of distractions and circumstances now that the don’t make it as easy. But yeah, I was and to this day advise anybody thinking within the the the food and beverage you know is it a great place to go. The answer is yes, but do not discount the McJob or the McTraining that Mc mentality because it is actually way outside of just the ability to make the restaurant run and what it teaches you as a person. I mean, the second residential course, just to go back to it, was all soft skills. It was, you know, one week dedicated, you know, interaction management, giving feedback, receiving feedback, training, how to set up a training system, how to recruit, how to handle customer conflicts. These are soft skills which over the years really, you know, help you, I think I don’t see as much of that nowadays in the the kind of the chain restaurants. So yeah, I think the evidence is it works.

Ashish Tulsian

I think I think the yeah I think the foundation these guys set then has rolled it you know so far. Yeah. But if those systems are not that prevalent today you know I don’t blame them because I also you know and that’s I would love to have a reaction on that because I think it’s becoming difficult for the current generation to commit to careers that are long. And it’s not about hospitality alone. Right. The hospitality is just a little more brutal because you need a certain number of years worth of practice before you can jump to the next stage. It’s just the rite of passage, right? It’s it’s you know, it’s not about somebody promoting you or not it’s just, you know, I generally look at it as that if you have to serve 100,000 people before you go to the next step, you have to serve hundred thousand people before you go to the next step, that’s a there’s no other way. You have to cross those 100,000 people. What’s what what do you think is happening now given that people also don’t have patience to think about a 15 year view of a career before they, quote unquote, settle?

Andy Holman

Well, look, I think again, I referred the of its time. So the training in those days had to be, if you like, analog because there was no digital. Right. So you had manuals because there was no system otherwise. I guess over the years we’ve seen it the various, you know, whatever it is, however it’s gone, Gen-X, millennials, Gen Z, I’m not quite sure where we are. But one thing, of course, which is is clear, is that the access to information, the speed with which it’s available, the ubiquity of which, you know, people are able to make their own learning journey is very different. So if you are a sociologist, you would say that the younger generations now are impatient and they’ve, you know, largely whatever it’s whether it’s information recall or physical sort of solutions being provided to them, if it’s not immediately available, it’s a frustration point. And so it’s not only about living, meaning, you know, why is why is there a need for any of these kind of distribution companies to go from next day delivery to then thinking, no, no, that’s not fast enough, We now need it in four hours. You know, that’s not enough. We need a 20 minute or 15 minute. I mean, realistically, how much how different is your life if the delivery is going to take 30 minutes or 15 minutes? But it seems to. So I think that there’s clear that the generation who go forward, that’s part of what they’ve grown up with, it’s not going to go away. You can’t put the genie back in the bottle. So I think that the the challenge for on the one hand, the employer if we’re talking about industries that are looking to to bring those people, you know, older minds have to figure out how do we.

Ashish Tulsian

Keep them engaged or nourished.

Andy Holman

Yeah, and train them as well, because there’s a belief that training can happen in just reading or viewing. You watch a video, you know, we all know that’s not really the case. I wouldn’t want a heart transplant done by somebody who’d watch the video to take the extreme case. But those are some of the things that, you know, successful companies.

Ashish Tulsian

I think customer interaction or public interaction is something that cannot be taught in a classroom, cannot be like you can’t learn it by watching a video. You can learn tips, tips and tricks. Yeah, but you know, the application of those tricks is only going to, you know, surprise you in a situation really, you know, arises. Public dealing is is I mean, I, I feel that everyone in the especially in the formative early years, should do some sort of a job that just exposes them to random public like to random public like just exposes them to public interaction of all types and kinds. It can be a sales job, it can be a hospitality job. I think I find both these, you know, quite amazing from that standpoint. The number of humans you can interact with in various different moods and situations, can just set you up for life.

Andy Holman

I agree. I think that there’s there’s a lot to be gained from it. Of course, you know, there’s a generation, many of the situations that people have gone through that it seems I’m very uncomfortable with that for reasons. I mean, the COVID group of kids who had to be locked up in rooms and couldn’t interact for a long time in a fairly important formative part of the life. Some of them have actively lost that skill and therefore their confidence or maybe even their family environments are such that they’ve also lost that kind of confidence and ability. So you’re right, it would be a it would be a kind of utopian situation where whether it was national service or whether some kind of yet necessarily military base, but that some kind of interaction.

Ashish Tulsian

Could be like a public, you know, public setting. Where you are serving or you are selling one of those.

Andy Holman

But you recognize some I do recognize as well, looking at the generations that I’ve worked with, some don’t feel comfortable at that and would as vociferously argue, no, don’t put me in that situation. It’s not your right to. Why would you expect to have me sort of do that if I’m not comfortable with it? No. So those those are obviously some of the challenges that now I think, as I say, as an industry, it continues to provide regardless as to the training backgrounds, just just happens to be a bit of a soapbox of mine. But the industry continues to provide, I think, huge amounts of opportunity. Definitely what’s changed over the years, the ability for people to get into the game relatively easy, some of the expectations that would exist or existed when I went through it and at any level, whether it’s fine dining all the way through, it was a big decision to go off and open a restaurant, right? I mean, there was a lot that had to be considered. Nowadays you can see people that can get a pop up open and pure sort of through their own personalities, a little bit of capital can bootstraps and a venture and get it up and running very quickly, in some cases very successfully. And if it doesn’t work, it’s disposable. Pull it off, go do something else, which I also think is positive. I mean, I’m not saying it’s great. I don’t believe for a minute that if you haven’t gone through the, you know, the Austrian fine dining category, you don’t qualify. No, you do. And that’s exciting. And I’m, you know, enriching for everybody.

Ashish Tulsian

I also believe that, you know, that is that has become possible also because, you know, back in the day and that’s my thesis that back in the day, finishing schools, you know, in high end were the possibly the only places where you could also experience that level of hospitality, you know, as a kid or as a as, you know, as early twenties, you don’t go to five stars and the seven stars of the world, right? You don’t go to the Michelin stars. And where do you experience that then? I think today these pop ups and these new entrepreneurs are able to do it better because you can experience it as a customer. Good hospitality or great dining experiences are available to you. Right. So so I think the exposure is much, you know, a very different level versus, you know, back in the day. Andy, how long was the Pizza Hut journey?

Andy Holman

So I joined them in 1983 and essentially left in 2006. So it was just about 23 is my my 23-23 years.  So that was the second part, I think, of the benefit I joined as I say, as a crew member and went through the management training, was in the north of England in the restaurant business, came down to the south, worked in London, progressed from a manager to a training manager to an area manager to a regional manager I worked with in the restaurant business. At that point, delivery was starting to become a thing in the late eighties, I worked in the delivery business, then I worked in concessions in and around the different points of the UK. And then in 1995, a colleague of mine who moved to the Middle East was saying, look, there’s an opportunity for for somebody to come and there’s this place called Dubai, and I never heard of it. So I was at a point in my time in the UK where I said to my wife, Look, let’s think about this.

Ashish Tulsian

What year was that?

Andy Holman

This was 1995.

Ashish Tulsian

Oh, wow. So that was early.

Andy Holman

That was early. And so we essentially we packed up, I came and the Yum as it was, PepsiCo at that point had an office here, not with any company restaurants, but just supporting the franchise community. KFC was fully owned by the Americana brands, and the pizza franchise system was fairly fragmented. So I came out to support those franchisees in whatever method was needed, some training, some sites management, some you know, marketing, profit management, whatever quality improvement. So a very diverse role, which was absolutely brilliant. I was that contact between the franchisee, the corporate office, which was either within states or in Singapore for a period, and I was responsible for every part of the growth of the brand.

Ashish Tulsian

What made you what made you move lots with barrels to Dubai back in 1995? I don’t even know how you know. What was that like?

Andy Holman

Two things, one, in truth, an idiot boss. I had a boss environment or a boss relationship which was toxic and I knew I couldn’t survive it. And two, the recommendation, if you like, of some colleagues who are already out here, and the fact that I didn’t I wasn’t particularly fearful of movement to to a place. My wife, was five months pregnant at that point. So it was a very different journey for her. We arrived in June and in those days there was little or no infrastructure that there is today. So that’s Debbie arrived five months pregnant. We had to do the whole running around trying to find somewhere to live in cars that weren’t air conditioning. So and I essentially arrived excited with my new job, dropped bags and said, I’ll see you when I see you.

Ashish Tulsian

Oh, wow.

Andy Holman

So, yeah, kudos to his handling that. But no, I think the journey from there was within them. At least I was responsible from the operational side of things for many as an opportunity to came to transfer into marketing. A not normal scenario, but the Middle East goes through its various tensions. We needed a marketing person and the team had been unsuccessful to entice anybody over. People were still a little bit uncertain as to what this place was, and I had a boss at the point who said agreed with my thesis that I know the franchisees. I know the brand. I think it will be a lot faster to teach me to be a marketeer than it will be to teach a marketer who knows the brands and the relationships. So I was given that opportunity. Yum, as always, had great systems for training. So I became the marketing director for a period of about four or five years, spent some time as the business development director when we wanted to try to figure out how to get into what was known in those times as the axis of evil. So Iran, Iraq, Libya, there were some sanctions in place on those countries that were at various stages of being lessened. So my job at that point was to figure out how we could get Pizza Hut and KFC into some of these countries, which was very interesting. Also managed to get KFC into Syria, which was a wonderful experience. I spent some time up in Libya and and various other countries, and then in 2006, somebody approached me from the from Thailand, a business that actually used to be a Pizza Hut franchisee and for various reasons, had, uh, fallen out of love with the corporate and set up their own business called Pizza Company.

Andy Holman

So I went to Thailand to run that business. In 2006.

Ashish Tulsian

Just 2006, you joined Minor group, Correct? What what’s exactly the story with Minor?

Andy Holman

So the agreement they’d had and from 1980 to 2000 was they took the franchise for Pizza Hut for Thailand. And in those days Pizza Hut was a completely independent entity from what became PepsiCo restaurants and subsequently became Yum. So like any entrepreneurial company and you know, management team as those acquisitions solidified and it became time for the renewal at the end of 20 years, which is quite typical in franchising ten plus 10. Then the renewal conditions being proposed to the management at Minor were that they had to either divest all businesses that competed with any of the other Yum Brands, Chicken being the main one. And of course Bill Heinecke was like, Well, no, that’s that’s not acceptable. We have a business that we want to grow, you know, in the event that we are a competitive with which they chose to be, is because you won’t give us the franchise. It’s already gone. So you can’t restrict our ability to trade. And this is where the conflict was. It was was such that did escalate into a variety of court cases, but essentially I think might have won by just, numerically they won because they closed all the Pizza Hut and went from Pizza Hut went from having a 100% share, essentially, of the market to a 0% share as Minor then Flipped over because they owned the real estate, rebranded the Pizza Company, took the opportunity to reformat the brand to a very Thai style, which was genius, slightly different sauce, slightly different recipes to make it more palatable for Thais, and then sort of opened up and operated the business essentially in the same places that they used to be with different branding so that it all happened significantly before I arrived in 2006. And I, when I joined the business, it was about 100 stores and I was with the brand for about ten years as the managing director and saw it grow from 100 to about 450-500, both in Thailand as well as internationally. So a phenomenal opportunity to work.

Ashish Tulsian

Internationally, within Southeast Asia, I believe.

Andy Holman

Yeah, but also within the Middle East. I mean, part of my journey into Thailand was because an ex colleague of mine who’d worked with, uh, Pizza Hut had left and moved and had been recruited as the marketing connection to do their international expansion. So there were a couple of franchisees for Pizza Company prior to my leaving Yum, as it was then, um, that I sort of was given the responsibility.

Ashish Tulsian

But do they have the Pizza Company here?

Andy Holman

They do yeah.

Ashish Tulsian

I never I didn’t know that.

Andy Holman

Coffee Club is part of the that’s a joint venture here. Look Minor have been and continue to be one of the bigger operators in Southeast Asia. I mean it’s a phenomenal business. When I joined, the food division was bigger than the hotel division. That is completely reverse now, the hotel division is is I don’t know what it is. Five, 600 hotels, something like 70 or 80,000 keys.

Ashish Tulsian

But I think there’s still I think the still 2000-2200 plus restaurants.

Andy Holman

Or over 3000. I think now.

Ashish Tulsian

Yeah, maybe, maybe more. Yeah.

Andy Holman

And they are a brilliant company. I mean, in terms of operating standards that the executive team that I was responsible to were, I mean, brilliant at understanding what made restaurants run and uh, had a phenomenal sort of capacity for, for holding. So my mind is business model is when we take a brand, we grow with it, it’s not a divest, bring it and flip, no. That they take and they strategically grow. So a wonderful environment. I mean, again, living and working in Thailand is is a bit of a change from a lot of other cultures.

Ashish Tulsian

Ten years you were in Thailand.

Andy Holman

Yeah. And I loved you know just loved it. I mean, it’s a phenomenal country to be able to explore, unlike a lot of the roles I did. I mean, there’s 76 provinces in Thailand, whatever the number is. And I think I’ve, you know, by default, visited 73 of them because we were building Pizza Companies there. And as it happens, a lot has happened also in Saudi Arabia when I was working with Yum, you see a lot more of a country than possibly many of the nationals do. And in that you gain a lot of insight and a lot of a lot of learning.

Ashish Tulsian

So I think I also think that Bangkok is one of the hidden gems of Asia. And by hidden I mean like what Bangkok actually is. And like, apart from what it is known for, like, ah, to me it’s like, I mean, it’s known for this and it’s like, yeah, it’s, it’s much, much more.

Andy Holman

Oh, absolutely right. Absolutely. And not just Bangkok. I mean, if the truth is if you get out and are able to kind of have some support in the outside countries, the secondary, tertiary, you know, the smaller villages, it’s it’s absolutely fantastic both from a food as well as a.

Ashish Tulsian

I think I said Bangkok because I find I mean to me many years back when I like spent like two weeks in Bangkok, I was on work but then for the first time I got to know what kind of melting pot you know of all kinds of nationalities and cultures Bangkok is. And from an outside view, I didn’t know that. I didn’t know that at all. Like, to me it was more like a touristy spot. But no, I mean, I saw expats living there, you know, And I think I think I have had some of the best restaurant food of all types of cuisines in Bangkok. Yeah, like better than the home countries. So to me, Bangkok, like, is it’s quite a big check.

Andy Holman

I agree. I think I think that, you know, the evidence is the same. They recently had the Michelin guide go in their last couple of years, and I’m not sure what the number is now, but there’s got a substantial base of Michelin qualified stores, restaurants.

Ashish Tulsian

Yeah, I went to a few, two months back.

Andy Holman

Yeah.

Ashish Tulsian

Including the including those carts and like home grown old Thai restaurants, which are like, absolutely unlike what the glamor of a Michelin guide restaurant would be. So how was the how was working minor group and was like, did you how do you look at growth between that period like in those ten years? How do you look at as a professional, look at your career?

Andy Holman

Well, the obvious distinction between the two, I went I joined Yum and progressed through Yum at an executive level. But middle management, I would say up to the the director, certainly within the context of the Yum hierarchy, I was mid management, Minor gave me that opportunity to become, you know, a very senior executive within a business that was a very substantial size. By the time I left it was what, $250 million of revenues and and substantial profitability. And in doing that, you know, being genuinely responsible for a company’s P&L that had significant importance to the to the business. I mean, Minor now of a slightly different structure. But in those days the food group and within the food group, Pizza Company, which was the company’s own brand as opposed to the franchise brands that they have, was the cash generator for the entire organization. So extremely important and given it was a publicly listed company as well, you know, brought this the responsibility and some of the stresses that come with with being responsible in that area. So it was a very it was a senior role, you know, very impactful role. We had a lot of challenges to. Essentially differentiate what Pizza Company now is from what it used to be. Thai consumers, not surprisingly, quite confused. You know, used to be red and black. Now it’s green and red and but essentially it’s doing the same food. So why when pizza did re enter the market, you know how to distinguish between the two was a challenge. So we did a lot of work to to make that distinction very obvious. The strategy and execution was to take Pizza Company down a more defined Italian inspired restaurant in a Thai context. Italian food is pizza and pasta, right? Yeah. So we kind of built and invested in putting pasta as a freshly made, cook in front of you platform in every one of the restaurants played as well, trying to get fried chicken into the system on the delivery side. So did a lot of developmental structural development work to to grow the brand’s value. Um, and then towards sort of middle of 2014-15 for various reasons, I hadn’t been back to the UK, aging parents and, and a desire to get back to Europe a little bit. I talked with the executive team and said, look, you know, I think my journey here is coming to an end on a day to day basis. And I mean, I can’t speak highly enough as to how supportive they were to say, Well, look, if you want to go back to the UK, that’s a, you know, convince us that there’s a business opportunity there that we can invest in and we’ll support you, which I did for about three years. I worked alongside another group that Minor have an investment in big time group called S&P, the family of whom owned some restaurants in London. So I went back, you know, on the for about four years just to to help one myself reestablish in the UK as well as sort of grow that fine dining. It was a more of a Thai fine dining business. And then in 2018 was approached just before that, 2017 was approached to come back out to the Middle East to run eathos, which is.

Ashish Tulsian

That’s another, that’s another chapter.

Andy Holman

Another chapter. But it was the I was essentially my previous boss in Thailand had a way of expressing he said, you have sand between your toes. Some people have rice paddies between their toes. You. He always said eventually the either the rice wins or the sand wins. And I think he was predictably right, the rice, the sand has won, So I’m back.

Ashish Tulsian

Indeed, indeed. So how did eathos happen?

Andy Holman

It’s it was a an approach again that had been made I guess was the headhunting company that they’d used. I kept in contact with. And it was just at the right time. I mean, from a personal standpoint, I had having re-introduced myself to my home country, realized that the benefits of being a long term expat aren’t afforded you the same, that the tax man’s a very aggressive beast in the UK. So it was a natural move for me, one to get back into a business where I was actually responsible for a sizable P&L and I mean a wonderful group of investors that were, you know, putting their trust in the management team that preceded me. And the business model, which was just so exciting. Develop franchises, make acquisitions or grow from scratch brands that would, you know, be successful. So it was a natural move and very blessed to have arrived at the point where the management team in situ. Nadim, who I know you spoke with recently, was a colleague who the CFO at the time was another colleague who I sort of remained connected to a wonderful team and great brands and a really sort of had the opportunity to to grow. We had some challenges to reorganize the company’s structure and focus. I think there hadn’t been as much of an appreciation in the founding management how important operational excellence and real dedicated focus on looking after.

Ashish Tulsian

But but I would like to talk about that a little. So you joined eathos in 2019?

Andy Holman

2018.

Ashish Tulsian

2018, right. And and given that most of the business was dine in focused, I as I’m assuming here because all the brands that I’m thinking of are mostly dine-in focused.

Andy Holman

They have a brick and mortar presence with some dine-ins. But ironically, as most of the quick casual brands out here will testament over a long period of time, the vast majority of it is actually is off premise. So in the context of something like Sushi Art.

Ashish Tulsian

Today or is it even?

Andy Holman

Even then, I mean, back in the day where Pizza Hut was, you know, mid mid nineties, you know, you would be 30% takeaway, 30% delivery and maybe only 30% dine in. And even within the sit down restaurants, some of that talks to the cultural, you know environment, particularly in a place like Saudi where it wasn’t as easy to go out and eat as a family. So the same here. I mean, all of the brands were very heavily invested already in delivery and off premise people coming in, taking. Sushi Art, Kebabji certainly had sit down seats. Tortilla, to some degree, but that’s more of a quick, casual concept. So yeah, I think the the you know, the focus of the group was growing all elements and you know, just getting new stores on the ground because we have development agreements with all of the franchisees, franchisors as well as, you know, naturally growing organically ticket count and an average volumes. So I mean, it was a very eclectic group of brands to to try to find some synergies. And sushi is quite unique and Kebabji is quite unique and it’s sort of supply chain requirements are not necessarily transferable. So some of the synergies you would normally expect to see in a big group weren’t as obvious to to to yield. But certainly at a management level of people, processes and systems, it was a great sort of a great opportunity to to learn different food. And if I was to certainly have my time again, pizza has always been a very profitable category. But without giving too many state secrets away, sushi and Japanese is a far more profitable category to be in. So so I would be I would be going back if I could replace some things and maybe invest in that earlier than I did.

Ashish Tulsian

Andy, in your career, post Pizza Hut specifically, you know it’s Minor group and eathos and I’m I don’t know about the S&P in between right but but what does it take and this is a question to you as an individual, what does it take for, you know somebody who comes with his own, you know, years of experience, baggage, bias and, of course, expertise to take over as the top boss in a in an existing organization which is working, which is, you know, people are set there, you know, some of them are the ones who also feel that they have built it. It’s their blood and sweat that has gone in over years. And then you fly in from, you know, some sort of the top and start directing. Demystify the dynamics for me from your lens.

Andy Holman

I think in the process of being considered for that position as well as considering whether you wish to take it on, it becomes apparent what the opportunities that you can bring, what what core skills, you know, experiences you can you can add to the mix that are going to add value. I was fortunate in the case of eathos that that being a period of time without a senior leader, I mean, Nadim had taken on the responsibilities to kind of cover for a day to day period, but there had been a bit of a holding pattern. So, you know, there’s always a kind of a honeymoon period when somebody arrives where you go after low hanging fruit, you kind of early wins and it seems obvious that you’re you’re contributing something. But I’ve been pretty clear in my mind that eathos had a really strong position to to kind of solidify its its strengths in the branded restaurants that they had the franchise agreements for, but also had an opportunity to go into the more kind of untapped areas. So I think I saw job number one, a fairly unstructured group of people that just needed organizing. One, and two needed the the freedom of knowing what the rules were. That may seem strange, but structure actually provides a much more kind of beneficial set of guidelines when you’ve got people who don’t necessarily have as visionary an understanding or a visionary, a a kind of belief in in what they’re doing. Providing them structure allows them to be really, really good. Some of those people will always enjoy being within the guardrails. Some will push will want naturally to push, and that’s great if you give them the opportunity to be a little bit more sort of aggressive or a bit more sort of, you know, expansionist. So that was really, I think what any CEO does, it comes in fairly quickly you take inventory of the people, the asset, the balance sheet shows you the kind of the assets that are available, capitalize and infrastructure. But people are really the thing that they’re going to make the difference. So I kind of came with no expectations. There’d been a job done up until that point. Some things have been successful, some hadn’t, and pretty quickly it became obvious that we weren’t as effective as we thought we were at really making customers happy and really making sure that the restaurants were run to their optimum. It’s easy to grow a business when you’re just putting brick and mortar down, but to really measure a business in our category, it has to be same store. You know, if the business that’s built isn’t growing on an annual basis against itself. And I’m talking here about customer counts, not just sales, because sales is a obviously the sum of customer counts and an average volume. If you’re not attracting more and more customers to your business every year, you’re ultimately going to struggle. So putting some of those, one, people didn’t know that. So making people aware of it, educating them and then getting really kind of specific and empirical about what we think we’re doing, are we really, you know, do the numbers tell us that? Is there evidence to show? Well, just good feel. And the review is numbers. Are we actually making these things matter? So that was really I think what I brought was was that focus on, okay, what do we want to do? Okay, what are the measures that we can fix ourselves? So that’s we’re doing that and then just spend enough time reinforcing it, going after the the the execution model. And two, engaging everybody in that. So the quicker you can get everybody from the CEO down to the the guy in the front line to understand what you’re trying to achieve, the easier it becomes for everybody to be.

Ashish Tulsian

What’s your method to do that? Because that’s that’s that’s not always easy. And it’s it’s one thing for a CEO to talk about alignment and vision and it’s like, absolutely like most important but of a different thing for everybody to listen or fall in line or to resonate with the vision. Exactly and the same, you know, at the same frequency. Right? You know, vision can sound different, do different people. Have you dealt with that?

Andy Holman

Very much so. I think when I arrived, there was no written vision. There was no articulated whether it was written or not. There was no articulated and clearly understood, what is this all about? We had a great business plan. There was a lots of activity to do these three things, build on franchises, you know, acquire and merge with with businesses and also grow our own. But which of those was going to be in priority? How did we kind of see what the company’s success was going to be. That wasn’t as articulated as it needed to be. So the first job was starting asking everybody who was important, and I say important in the sense that they had impact. They had the ability to create results in the group. What do you understand to be the current, you know, objective of the company? As I’ve found over the years, typically you’ll find 50% of the people will say the same things, but not in the same order. 50% will have completely different answers. Now, in my case, I had a pretty strong direction from both the shareholders and the board. So what the vision that was committed to the shareholders had to be. So it was a little bit easier. It wasn’t that I had to come in and, you know, kind of recreate the will. That was the bit that we then had to say, Let’s let’s put some numbers around that, let’s put some some some words around that and make sure everybody understands it. And for those who hadn’t appreciated, that’s what we’re going for then if you aren’t enthusiastic about that, you know, bye bye. For those that are now, let’s kind of get after it. And then over time, like any vision, I think once you’ve written it, you then refine it. You come back on a on a frequent basis, frequent being at least half yearly. One, It’s an audit. Are we really doing the things that make that come alive? And if we’re not, let’s, let’s at least be honest enough to admit that it’s not working. Minor were very good at that. I have to say, that’s this whole education that I’m espousing came working with Minor even more so than with Yum.

Ashish Tulsian

Tell me more about it.

Andy Holman

I mean, the whole putting a sort of a mechanism, a strategic planning process in place that encapsulated what is the vision, what’s the long term kind of almost ethereal, can’t quite reach it, but the motivational statement and then writing strategies and a strategy has to be crafted in a in a language that really clearly articulates what what is it that we’re trying to who are we going after. What are the timeframes involved? You know, what’s the end state that we see as being definition of now we’ve achieved it? We’ll revise it as we get closer towards that. But is there something really structured and two, big distinction between what are the measures and what are the actions that we’re going to take? A lot of time I’ve seen strategies defined purely numerically, which makes no sense. The numbers are what I would call the lagging indicators. The leading indicators are the things that we do. So if you want to grow sales, okay, everybody wants to do that. What does it translate into in terms of actions? What will we do? Up until today, we’ve been working, doing one thing. From tomorrow we’re going to have to either do the same because it’s working or do something different. What what is that? And I think that one of the lessons I learned was we call it the five whys or the five Hows. Meaning if you really want to get clarity on an action plan, once you ask the first question, okay, how are you going to grow sales? You’ll get given an answer. So well, why are you going to do that? Go five times with the question why. With that you will start to get real insight. Do people really understand? Have they thought through what it is that they’re going to be doing with their time? And and is it measurable and in the sense that not just did I get X percent, but did I meet those timeframes? Did I speak with those people? Is my action plan complete and how do I move it on? And that rigor is really what’s important. Minor did an excellent job at codifying that whole process from diagrammatically capturing the strategy on a single piece of paper. And then on the second piece of paper for every single initiative. And that’s essentially what they were saying with you want to achieve something, there’s going to be some activities. What will be the measures of success and the the mileposts of those activities? Write them down and then spend time on a monthly, quarterly, you know, half yearly basis really saying, did we achieve it? And that has stuck with me. The traffic light system is the most obvious way. You either green or red. Green means you’re making progress. Red means you’re not. And the executive team in Minor were brilliant at saying if you set yourself some goals that you are achieving the actions that you’re achieving, but the measures for which you expected those actions to yield are red. So green you’re giving yourself well done. I’ve done all these things, but my results are still red. Then clearly something’s wrong, right? Likewise, if you’re getting all these, you give yourself credit, you’re achieving all your numbers, but your activities are red. You’re not doing what you said. Something’s wrong. Either the you know, your good luck that you’re getting the results, but it’s not because of what you’re doing. So the system forces you to recognize actions and numbers should be, you know, looked at in concert.

Ashish Tulsian

Superb.

Andy Holman

And that system and it’s not just a one off. You don’t do it at the beginning of the year. Put it in a drawer and come you systematically review it. And that’s, I think, the core learning both as a CEO and then as a as a senior executive within Minor. That helped me figure out, when you wake up in the morning, what am I going to do today? Is it going to make sense for the team? It’s kind of that.

Ashish Tulsian

That’s actually amazing. This is something that I’m going to come back to you personally. You know, for as a CEO, I think thinking about this is a system like paints a brilliant and like an objective picture. And especially when you’re saying 5 hows and 5 whys as a drill down exercise. That’s quite fascinating.

Andy Holman

Yeah, it is a discipline, which I think a lot of people find. I have certainly found, as you engage as a CEO throughout an organization, one of the benefits of allowing every employee to understand that gives them an opportunity to be recognized. That’s the fundamental human need, right? We do a job whether a senior or a junior, but we want to know that there’s an opportunity to be recognized, to be given feedback, hopefully positive. The quicker you can get the mechanism in place that allows everybody their moment of glory to have a soapbox, to stand up and say, Hey, I did that and be recognized for it, which is a Yum system. Recognition is extremely powerful and very well sort of organized there. The quicker you can do that and make it a system, the quicker you’ll see results coming within any organization.

Ashish Tulsian

What’s been your, you know, leadership style is it, you know, and you’re in the I mean, you have stressed this in various ways already, that it’s business is all about people. I mean, everything else is playing around people and people are going to make it right. But what’s been your leadership style with people? How do you define that?

Andy Holman

Well, hopefully this is not just my view, but also what colleagues who I’ve worked with have said. And I think a lot of what my style is towards the end of my working career is very different from maybe what it was as I was, if you like, climbing the ladder. Now, I would see my leadership style is about enablement. If if it’s not too sort of a a flossier word, meaning, the quicker you can unlock the capabilities in any one individual and whatever you can do to help that, the better for everyone. So I’d like to spend a lot of time to understand somebody’s motivations. So in the introduction meeting, when I meet people the first time I actually use a little questionnaire, which I asked them in preparation for the first meeting to do some thinking a little bit, not not huge. But you know, you’ve been in the company for X number of years. It’s only when you originally joining why, what did you see in the company when you joined that made you excited, that made you want to go? And it may be just money, it may be something else. Whatever it is, think about that. Tell me whether or not you think you’ve achieved it. So what do you believe the company’s key achievements are? What more could we do? So in doing those questions and it’s three or four, you allow somebody in their first meeting with you as a senior to give themselves an opportunity to reflect as well as they can be positive, they can be negative. It makes it, but it’s a hugely insightful tool for me as a leader to know, okay, some people are driven, some people are quite comfortable just to be treading water. Some people are transient. You can’t avoid. The quicker you can figure out who is what and help them. I think if I have a management style, it’s to enable people to get to where they want to be. If you can stay within my organization and I value brilliant, you know, we’ll continue to be supportive of you. If you’re not if you have a desire to do do something else, then let me help you do that. I mean, this is a small industry in some respects. Anybody who’s successful and leaves your organization to go and do better things, let them if if you can’t hold them. But by all means, come back when things are right. One thing I did I do again that was learned out of Minor asking a question in one of the first meetings was at all persons meeting, town hall meeting. I asked everybody, please put your hand up if you’ve had a headhunter approach you in the last 90 days. And of course, in this part of the world, how many hands do you think went up? Not a one. And this was taught to me by Will Heinecke. He said then you should, one, you should be worried if you aren’t being approached, then that means you’re not the most desirable individual. Why should you? But if if you’re not being headhunted, then why should you be in my organization right now? Of course, the cricket people would say, Are you crazy? Why would you ask people you need to know. Yeah, and two as a senior leader, if I know who my talent is that’s being approached, I have an opportunity to protect them. And more importantly, if they choose at some point to leave, it’s because I haven’t fulfilled a need. I haven’t been able to outline a future for them that’s compelling enough for them to stay at home. So it’s a loaded question, but a very important one. Who here is being approached? If they say no three times on the trot, then at the end of your performance review when you’re like, I look, you think you’re really valuable, nobody else wants you, so let’s be real here, right? Or alternatively, no, you really are valuable and people see it. So let’s agree how we can make that, you know, benefit for both of us. It avoids, to some degree the surprise blindsiding conversation where somebody comes in and goes, Oh, I’ve already made the decision to leave. I’d sooner have that conversation and a mechanism for people to talk about that without it being a discomfort right. Now that, as I say, it’s counterintuitive for a lot of people, but I find that works quite well.

Ashish Tulsian

That I resonate with that. I resonate with that fully. I remember, you know, many years back, anything we are much smaller as an organization then, somebody who joined us. I think like I think six months back, you know, came to me talking about one of our, you know, much senior, you know, teammates. And he said, you know, I have something to tell you. Okay, tell me. It’s about that guy. He said, I got to know that you know, a company has approached him and he has an offer. I said, oh, wow. So is he taking the offer? He said, that I don’t know. I said, Well, so what’s your point? He said, No, I’m just telling you that he has an offer.

Ashish Tulsian

So. And I said, Do you have an offer? He said, No. I mean, I’m not looking. I said I didn’t ask you that you’re looking. Do you have an offer? He said, No. So then I’m worried. Only I want you. Nobody else wants you. So I and I think what I was telling him in that moment, honestly, was my emotion that surfaced right then I was not really, you know, this is not so that also changed something in me in that moment because I was like, yeah, I mean, I felt very self secure and good about that in that conversation. But what you are telling me now is like, like absolute like you’ve just put that emotion in structure, which is is brilliant. And when you’re saying a group like Minor, which is a huge organization, for them to practice it like this, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s brilliant.

Andy Holman

I mean, it works. Listen, it’s it’s an approach which some nationalities, I would have to say some coaches are much more comfortable with than others. It’s not a natural scenario. In Thai context it’s very abnormal. Yeah, the culture there is very.

Ashish Tulsian

Non-confrontational, you know, people are not going to say what they feel or talk about discomfort. Secretive, in a way.

Andy Holman

So and even to some degree in this part of Dubai, I mean, the Middle East, it’s it’s, it’s a very different thing. There’s a there’s an one a natural desire to save face and two you know, nobody wants to be delivering uncomfortable messages. I mean, most Asian families even would would sooner have If you want to deliver bad news, ask your father, your sister or daughter, your brother to do it. You know, because that way it becomes a little bit easier. So that happens very much in the corporate world. So I think that to go back to your question, what type of a leader, I would like to think that that over the time that I’ve had people come who are wrestling with this, oh, how do I talk to make it and demystify it. Because nobody needs the conflict. And not that I’m ever happy to lose talented people, but on the occasions it’s happened and it’s completely blindsided me, it is then a moment of self-reflection. How could I miss this? Another phenomenal system that the Minor, the boss that I worked for at Minor, had, she was the COO and her mindset was you have to have there are three questions always to ask in any scenario, regardless as to whether you’re an operational person or whether you’re whatever role you have when an issue occurs to you, it’s brought to your attention. The first question you should always ask yourself is Why didn’t I know? Now, this is a loaded question again, in an operational context, take something simple. You walk into a restaurant and you see that there’s chaos in one particular. So there’s a problem, right? Why didn’t I know? Is it because I don’t visit the stores enough? Is it because I don’t have a relationship with the team, to be honest enough? Is it because what is that reason at a deeper level? Asking why five times? Why didn’t I know? Once you’ve established why you, if you like, didn’t know two is where else is this situation? Yeah, you know, in the context of people who else is feeling like this, Where is it a is it it’s this individual or is this a systemic issue that I have to address? And then three, being put on the spot with this knowledge, what do I do to fix the system, Not the issue. If it’s circumstantial, what can there’s a problem now. Somebody else, you need to come and deal with this. If it’s something which requires management responsibility to systemically change, you have to commit and make that point. So to some degree that’s the same at all levels Managing people, right? Yeah. Blindsided. Why didn’t I know? I have the relationship with this person, whatever it is then, is it on me? Is it my style that’s made them uncomfortable? Am I too close? I’m not close enough? What’s the what’s the dynamic here? And then the other two questions follow from that in the same way. And again, this would be for the people that I’ve worked with and have left or come back in many cases, and particularly in the case of eathos, I think that’s what they would say that they valued. You know, you have a boss in Andy who’s not going to go off the rails. Life is too short and nobody’s going to join a company and be there for 60 years. You’re going to have to move, right? That’s inevitable. When you join any organization. The days of being a lifetime employee, they’re gone. So you have to make that arrival system and departure system as as fulfilling as it can be, supposedly organization as well as the individuals. That’s I think the responsibility leaders have.

Ashish Tulsian

That’s beautiful Andy. What do you do to keep yourself nurtured?

Andy Holman

Look, I, I have some time on my hands, so I, I, I’m an avid golfer. I’m not saying that necessarily nurtures me spiritually because it challenges all the other dark forces of nature when it doesn’t go well. But I enjoy playing golf when I get the opportunity. I play a lot of tennis, big tennis mostly. Although I was introduced recently to a short version of the game, which was quite enjoyable.

Ashish Tulsian

Pickle ball?

Andy Holman

Actually, it’s called short tennis.

Ashish Tulsian

Oh, sorry.

Andy Holman

But I have played Pickle and I have played Paddle, but I think tennis is really the first sort of love for an interactive sport. Not that I’m particularly great at it. I’m not fit enough to do what the big guys do, but I do enjoy it. Other than that, I mean, I’ll partake in any sport that’s out there. A lot of armchair sports. I love cricket, I love football, I love rugby, I love all of the sports that you would maybe see on TV. I like to eat.

Ashish Tulsian

What’s your favorite favorite cuisine?

Andy Holman

It varies depending, but I think if I if you had to just have one kind of nationality, I’d probably go Japanese.

Ashish Tulsian

I mean you like the taste more or the profitability?

Andy Holman

No, I think my favorite meal’s just it’s the way the Japanese do everything so meticulously and artistically and whether it’s sushi or sashimi or whether it’s the sort of robust dishes that they do, I just love the the way that they kind of make things work.

Ashish Tulsian

Yeah, plus one to that. I think, I think making them, seeing them, watching them make that is also therapeutic. Yeah. Especially like sushi and.

Andy Holman

But I look, I love Italian, I love, I love all the food. I mean, what can I tell you? Um.

Ashish Tulsian

What’s your, what’s your like restaurant that you love? One or two restaurants in Dubai that you love?

Andy Holman

Oh, my goodness. You know what? There’s some places which have kind of even from 95 when I was first introduced to them, I would still on occasion go back. So on a street food basis, if you like, or a classic Dubai institutions, there are two that springs to mind, Ravi’s. And so that was is always a good place to go.

Ashish Tulsian

Indian, Pakistani.

Andy Holman

The other one is an Irani cafe, Ustadi restaurant just off of in Walid Street, which is close to where our first offices were.

Ashish Tulsian

Where Exactly is that?

Andy Holman

If you go down Khalid bin walid, turn right or whatever the the one the turning is after the bank of fujairah building. It’s quite famous. Ustadi Irani cafe.

Ashish Tulsian

What do you like there?

Andy Holman

Like the the the grilled. I do like kebabs which are marinated in a yogurt and then flushed fried on open coals. Iranian rice. They have like.

Ashish Tulsian

Berries and all.

Andy Holman

Yeah yeah they a with the saffron with the with the pomegranate I think so yeah. So that’s, that’s a great um. Look, if somebody is paying the bill I will happily go to Gaia or any of the DIFC institutions, but I mean I look, I’m fortunate like.

Ashish Tulsian

Gaia is amazing.

Andy Holman

Amazing. Dubai is. It really is a remarkable I think it’s without a doubt, top top three cities of the world at the moment for innovation and, you know, culinary excellence. It’s superb.

Ashish Tulsian

I’m making a note for Ustadi. I am going to visit.

Andy Holman

I’ll send you the link It’s it’s well worth going it’s quite an institution It’s yeah if you like the the Iranian style.

Ashish Tulsian

I love it, the Iranian style, in fact I want to do one somehow. It hasn’t happened yet.

Andy Holman

But you have to go for occasionally the curries or occasionally Thai. I mean Minor gave me an appreciation of Thai food we now in eathos, now have the the kind of operations of Rosa’s Thai which is a great for a great restaurant to get to.

Ashish Tulsian

And and so do you read?

Andy Holman

Actually not as much as I should.

Ashish Tulsian

Or podcasts or Audio books?

Andy Holman

Look one, I had the exit from eathos and some time on my hands I made myself three commitments that that would be get fit, what I would call digitally detox and then learn to read again. Because the truth is I haven’t read a work of fiction. I am horrified, it is probably been 20 years. I mean, a hand-held book, not a Kindle, but a book with a story and characters and I haven’t, for 20 years and it’s a big omission. Likewise, whilst I do read a huge amount of trade journals, I subscribe to a wide I have the Times online, Guardian and, The Telegraph, which is three completely different sort of political spectrums. The Economist, Harvard Reviews. So I do a lot of that kind of reading. I listen to a lot of podcasts from kind of more classical to news based, but I’m not as as well read as I should be. And my digital detox promise has been a disaster. So trying to separate from the phone, I.

Ashish Tulsian

I was about to ask that question. You blew that up. I was about to ask you that. That how is the digital detox going and what does it look like?

Andy Holman

No, it’s not good. I’m I’m I’m kind of. Yeah, it’s a lazy man’s crutch, isn’t it? I, I mean, we should all start by doing the first one, which is leaving the phone out of the bathroom when you go. But no, I’m not good in that area.

Ashish Tulsian

Andy, what’s up now? So have you have taken like post eathos, you did not take any assignments. So what are you up to now?

Andy Holman

Look, I have the privilege of working alongside still colleagues who we worked with at eathos who are doing their own thing. And at the time I was somewhat conflicted to be more engaged in there and the business model because we were a client and I had been asked in two or three cases to kind of join the that group of advisors. So I do a little bit of that. I have colleagues who are actively involved and have a specific business problem that they’re looking to solve, whether it’s a divestment or I contribute to their conversations and, you know, take a certain amount of income from that. But I like to say if the opportunity comes, I would unhesitatingly get back into the game in and around because the region is just so dynamic. I mean, it’s it’s yeah, it’s, it’s an industry which I still love. My daughter is very much engaged in it, so I have an opportunity to provide some words of wisdom, I think not always taken.

Ashish Tulsian

What is she up to?

Andy Holman

She also actually works in eathos. She’s the marketing. She works within the marketing field.

Ashish Tulsian

Oh wow.

Andy Holman

So she’s responsible for quite a bit of there. A number of the brands. Um, so yeah, I mean, I.

Ashish Tulsian

So her love for hospitality, you know, kind of grew, but your work or was it just by chance she ended up like a marketer ended up in hospitality. What happened?

Andy Holman

I think I think I mean like all kids of people or parents, my wife as well came from the hospitality business. So it was, I think, for both of my kids, a kind of an avenue that they explored. Um, my daughter actually spent she put uniforms on. She worked in the Thai restaurant business and she worked in bakeries and stuff at the hotel business and in for Minor on internships. But nevertheless, she kind of cut her teeth on that. And so I think it’s a more a case of she’s gravitated towards it. She’s good at it, which helps. Um, she has a more of an arts based degree. She has a double degree in French and history. Um, so how you use those degrees is maybe not clear, but no, she, she definitely has a, an eye on the industry as being one that she enjoys. Um, maybe she’ll go off and join one of the big young groups. Who knows?

Ashish Tulsian

That is so awesome. And this was a great conversation. I, you know, as the CEO, learned a lot of things, a lot of management lessons that in fact I was thinking about, you know, watching this, you know, again when we are able to release this. But congratulations on a great journey so far. And wish you best for what’s, you know, coming next. Thank you.

Andy Holman

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.